Best games of all time... already out or still to come?
2-Sep-23 10:49am
#1 benstylus
Happened across this video on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/dls...
About halfway through the video, he makes the comment: "It would essentially be making the bet that the best games that will ever come out have already come out."
Looking at that, what are your thoughts?
When you ask people about the best game of all time, so few of them would mention a recent release. I think that's partly out of a social fear of being thought of as presumptuous that a new game will stand the test of time like something like Super Mario 3 or Ocarina of Time have for a lot of people.
But also... I kinda agree? What are the hallmarks of modern gaming?
Microtransactions up the wazoo mean that to experience the "full" game, the barrier of entry often becomes too high, particularly if you are late to the party and haven't been buying incrementally. (Not even going to get into aggressive free to play models that punish players who don't pony up the cash)
Live service means games are never really complete anymore, and some aspects of a game that you really enjoyed might be cycled out (or worse, made irrelevant) in a future season's update.
Online multiplayer games are only as good as the pool of people who are still playing them, and even that's assuming the servers are still up.
Extremely high development cost means a single game can make or break a studio. Most publishers want to play it safe, so the only innovators are the indies on shoestring budgets.
For people like me, even the content of a lot of modern games has gotten to the point where it makes me uncomfortable. Overuse of foul language (the first M rated Final Fantasy game), the realism of the blood and gore (a far cry from the comedic dozens of rib cages and skulls from an exploded foe in Mortal Kombat 2), and tacky sex scenes that you'd feel real awkward if your partner (or your kids) walked in and saw you playing).
Maybe there is an element of nostalgia talking as well, but the creativity that developers have when they actually have constraints makes for far more interesting games.
That being said, I think we have seen some modern games that are objectively better than their classic ancestors.
I love Super Mario 3, but I think either of the Super Mario Galaxy games by far exceed it.
Ocarina of Time is a classic, but I feel like any of the modern 3D Zeldas from Twilight Princess onward are easily better games.
Some games, but not all. For an example:
At Akaicon in July, we were running the video game room. One gentleman came and asked if we had any Tekken games. We had a disc for 6, and 7 installed on one of the systems, but he said he was looking specifically for the older games, because the new ones had too much complexity added to them. I went over our ps1 and ps2 games and we had Tekken Tag Tournament, so he and his son played that together for an hour or so. And it was regularly played after that the rest of the day (unlike tekken 6 or 7) so we never swapped it out for something else.
Although we had a Street Fighter 6 tournament, the SNES Mini was often busy with people playing Street Fighter 2.
Personally, I think the potential is there for the best games of all time to still be out there somewhere, just waiting to be made. But due to how game development costs a significant amount of money (and that amount is constantly increasing), there are fewer companies willing to take significant risks. It's a completely understandable stance to take when a single big failure can essentially put a non-behemoth publisher out of business.
A developer getting bought by a big publisher has its own set of problems. One flop (or even just a modest success) and the publisher might choose to shut the studio down and either shuffle thr IPs they developed to other studios to be driven into the ground, or locked away somewhere never to be seen again.
So are the best games ever still to come?
If so, it's probably going to be from the indie developers.
But then again, back in 2011 when Ubisoft was in peak AAA or shovelware only mode, among the 70ish games they released that year was Rayman Origins which is one of the best 2D platformers of all time (although bested by Rayman Legends two years later). A lot has changed since then though.
#1 benstylus
Happened across this video on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/dls...
About halfway through the video, he makes the comment: "It would essentially be making the bet that the best games that will ever come out have already come out."
Looking at that, what are your thoughts?
When you ask people about the best game of all time, so few of them would mention a recent release. I think that's partly out of a social fear of being thought of as presumptuous that a new game will stand the test of time like something like Super Mario 3 or Ocarina of Time have for a lot of people.
But also... I kinda agree? What are the hallmarks of modern gaming?
Microtransactions up the wazoo mean that to experience the "full" game, the barrier of entry often becomes too high, particularly if you are late to the party and haven't been buying incrementally. (Not even going to get into aggressive free to play models that punish players who don't pony up the cash)
Live service means games are never really complete anymore, and some aspects of a game that you really enjoyed might be cycled out (or worse, made irrelevant) in a future season's update.
Online multiplayer games are only as good as the pool of people who are still playing them, and even that's assuming the servers are still up.
Extremely high development cost means a single game can make or break a studio. Most publishers want to play it safe, so the only innovators are the indies on shoestring budgets.
For people like me, even the content of a lot of modern games has gotten to the point where it makes me uncomfortable. Overuse of foul language (the first M rated Final Fantasy game), the realism of the blood and gore (a far cry from the comedic dozens of rib cages and skulls from an exploded foe in Mortal Kombat 2), and tacky sex scenes that you'd feel real awkward if your partner (or your kids) walked in and saw you playing).
Maybe there is an element of nostalgia talking as well, but the creativity that developers have when they actually have constraints makes for far more interesting games.
That being said, I think we have seen some modern games that are objectively better than their classic ancestors.
I love Super Mario 3, but I think either of the Super Mario Galaxy games by far exceed it.
Ocarina of Time is a classic, but I feel like any of the modern 3D Zeldas from Twilight Princess onward are easily better games.
Some games, but not all. For an example:
At Akaicon in July, we were running the video game room. One gentleman came and asked if we had any Tekken games. We had a disc for 6, and 7 installed on one of the systems, but he said he was looking specifically for the older games, because the new ones had too much complexity added to them. I went over our ps1 and ps2 games and we had Tekken Tag Tournament, so he and his son played that together for an hour or so. And it was regularly played after that the rest of the day (unlike tekken 6 or 7) so we never swapped it out for something else.
Although we had a Street Fighter 6 tournament, the SNES Mini was often busy with people playing Street Fighter 2.
Personally, I think the potential is there for the best games of all time to still be out there somewhere, just waiting to be made. But due to how game development costs a significant amount of money (and that amount is constantly increasing), there are fewer companies willing to take significant risks. It's a completely understandable stance to take when a single big failure can essentially put a non-behemoth publisher out of business.
A developer getting bought by a big publisher has its own set of problems. One flop (or even just a modest success) and the publisher might choose to shut the studio down and either shuffle thr IPs they developed to other studios to be driven into the ground, or locked away somewhere never to be seen again.
So are the best games ever still to come?
If so, it's probably going to be from the indie developers.
But then again, back in 2011 when Ubisoft was in peak AAA or shovelware only mode, among the 70ish games they released that year was Rayman Origins which is one of the best 2D platformers of all time (although bested by Rayman Legends two years later). A lot has changed since then though.
2-Sep-23 11:28am
#2 Shane12m
So the debate is if gaming has peaked? I say absolutely not and games will only get better.
I don’t think the best games in the future are gonna come just from indie devs. Games are expensive to make. The two best games this year are from big studios (Zelda and Baldurs gate 3). That won’t change IMO
#2 Shane12m
So the debate is if gaming has peaked? I say absolutely not and games will only get better.
I don’t think the best games in the future are gonna come just from indie devs. Games are expensive to make. The two best games this year are from big studios (Zelda and Baldurs gate 3). That won’t change IMO
2-Sep-23 11:31am
#3 Orlandu
The best game of all time is like the best music or the best SNL cast. It's whatever you enjoyed most during your formative years.
#3 Orlandu
The best game of all time is like the best music or the best SNL cast. It's whatever you enjoyed most during your formative years.
2-Sep-23 12:16pm
#4 benstylus
Shane12m wrote:
So the debate is if gaming has peaked? I say absolutely not and games will only get better. I don’t think the best games in the future are gonna come just from indie devs. Games are expensive to make. The two best games this year are from big studios (Zelda and Baldurs gate 3). That won’t change IMO
At least some people feel like BOTW is a better overall game than TOTK. Here's an example:
https://rpgranked.co...
I can't speak as to Baldur's Gate 3 since I haven't played it, but my understanding is it definitely follows the recent M-rated game tropes of sex scenes and f bombs.
What makes BG3 "better" than any RPG that came before it?
#4 benstylus
Shane12m wrote:
So the debate is if gaming has peaked? I say absolutely not and games will only get better. I don’t think the best games in the future are gonna come just from indie devs. Games are expensive to make. The two best games this year are from big studios (Zelda and Baldurs gate 3). That won’t change IMO
At least some people feel like BOTW is a better overall game than TOTK. Here's an example:
https://rpgranked.co...
I can't speak as to Baldur's Gate 3 since I haven't played it, but my understanding is it definitely follows the recent M-rated game tropes of sex scenes and f bombs.
What makes BG3 "better" than any RPG that came before it?
2-Sep-23 12:33pm
#5 benstylus
Orlandu wrote:
The best game of all time is like the best music or the best SNL cast. It's whatever you enjoyed most during your formative years.
I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. I grew up playing Atari and NES, but I don't think those are necessarily the best years to go back to for gaming (certainly some of the most important in establishing home video games, but not necessarily the best).
I had a Genesis instead of a SNES for quite some time, but I still find a lot of Genesis games to be way rougher around the edges than similar games on the SNES. And certainly some games I loved back then are... not high on my to-play list now when I want a retro fix (Sonic Spinball).
When I was younger I loved playing RPGs and other long games, but neither they nor their modern equivalents typically keep my attention longer than a few sessions nowadays.
So it isn't just a matter of "this is what I grew up with, therefore it is the best."
I will, however, argue that mainstream 70s and 80s musicians were objectively better at vocals than the heavily autotuned stuff you hear today (though there are still some very talented vocalists today).
#5 benstylus
Orlandu wrote:
The best game of all time is like the best music or the best SNL cast. It's whatever you enjoyed most during your formative years.
I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. I grew up playing Atari and NES, but I don't think those are necessarily the best years to go back to for gaming (certainly some of the most important in establishing home video games, but not necessarily the best).
I had a Genesis instead of a SNES for quite some time, but I still find a lot of Genesis games to be way rougher around the edges than similar games on the SNES. And certainly some games I loved back then are... not high on my to-play list now when I want a retro fix (Sonic Spinball).
When I was younger I loved playing RPGs and other long games, but neither they nor their modern equivalents typically keep my attention longer than a few sessions nowadays.
So it isn't just a matter of "this is what I grew up with, therefore it is the best."
I will, however, argue that mainstream 70s and 80s musicians were objectively better at vocals than the heavily autotuned stuff you hear today (though there are still some very talented vocalists today).
2-Sep-23 12:39pm
#6 Yoshi
I'd like to think some of the best games are still ahead of us, but I do think we're past the tipping point where more of them are already out. Because of many factors, there will never be a publisher with in-house developers that can match what Konami or Sega did in the 1980s and 90s in terms of quality, quantity, and genre diversity.
#6 Yoshi
I'd like to think some of the best games are still ahead of us, but I do think we're past the tipping point where more of them are already out. Because of many factors, there will never be a publisher with in-house developers that can match what Konami or Sega did in the 1980s and 90s in terms of quality, quantity, and genre diversity.
2-Sep-23 3:24pm
#7 Gypsy
benstylus wrote:
Orlandu wrote:> The best game of all time is like the best music or the best SNL cast. It's whatever> you enjoyed most during your formative years. I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. I grew up playing Atari and NES, but I don't think those are necessarily the best years to go back to for gaming (certainly some of the most important in establishing home video games, but not necessarily the best). I had a Genesis instead of a SNES for quite some time, but I still find a lot of Genesis games to be way rougher around the edges than similar games on the SNES. And certainly some games I loved back then are... not high on my to-play list now when I want a retro fix (Sonic Spinball). When I was younger I loved playing RPGs and other long games, but neither they nor their modern equivalents typically keep my attention longer than a few sessions nowadays. So it isn't just a matter of "this is what I grew up with, therefore it is the best." I will, however, argue that mainstream 70s and 80s musicians were objectively better at vocals than the heavily autotuned stuff you hear today (though there are still some very talented vocalists today).
Yeah if that were the case for me I'd love the N64 and I really don't. I really love the SNES, PC Engine, PS1 and PS4. The first three of which I went to really discover after being well into gaming for many years. I didn't really play much SNES or PC Engine until maybe 2013 at the earliest. I have a ton of experience with the Dreamcast and still have games I play on it regularly but I don't play that quite like I used to.
I think the problem for me with a lot of rpgs is that they are too damn long. I can enjoy a longer game but the sweet spot for that genre for me is usually 25-35 hours unless I'm really loving it (like say Octopath Traveler).
Overall the answer for me is definitely already out (though certainly there are modern games I enjoy) and
Yoshi wrote:
I'd like to think some of the best games are still ahead of us, but I do think we're past the tipping point where more of them are already out. Because of many factors, there will never be a publisher with in-house developers that can match what Konami or Sega did in the 1980s and 90s in terms of quality, quantity, and genre diversity.
Totally agree with this. Old Konami was truly special.
I'd also throw my hat in the ring for Compile. They are no Konami but I loved their output. Zanac x Zanac is one of the best shmups.
If anyone is curious: https://en.wikipedia...(company)#As_Compile
#7 Gypsy
benstylus wrote:
Orlandu wrote:> The best game of all time is like the best music or the best SNL cast. It's whatever> you enjoyed most during your formative years. I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. I grew up playing Atari and NES, but I don't think those are necessarily the best years to go back to for gaming (certainly some of the most important in establishing home video games, but not necessarily the best). I had a Genesis instead of a SNES for quite some time, but I still find a lot of Genesis games to be way rougher around the edges than similar games on the SNES. And certainly some games I loved back then are... not high on my to-play list now when I want a retro fix (Sonic Spinball). When I was younger I loved playing RPGs and other long games, but neither they nor their modern equivalents typically keep my attention longer than a few sessions nowadays. So it isn't just a matter of "this is what I grew up with, therefore it is the best." I will, however, argue that mainstream 70s and 80s musicians were objectively better at vocals than the heavily autotuned stuff you hear today (though there are still some very talented vocalists today).
Yeah if that were the case for me I'd love the N64 and I really don't. I really love the SNES, PC Engine, PS1 and PS4. The first three of which I went to really discover after being well into gaming for many years. I didn't really play much SNES or PC Engine until maybe 2013 at the earliest. I have a ton of experience with the Dreamcast and still have games I play on it regularly but I don't play that quite like I used to.
I think the problem for me with a lot of rpgs is that they are too damn long. I can enjoy a longer game but the sweet spot for that genre for me is usually 25-35 hours unless I'm really loving it (like say Octopath Traveler).
Overall the answer for me is definitely already out (though certainly there are modern games I enjoy) and
Yoshi wrote:
I'd like to think some of the best games are still ahead of us, but I do think we're past the tipping point where more of them are already out. Because of many factors, there will never be a publisher with in-house developers that can match what Konami or Sega did in the 1980s and 90s in terms of quality, quantity, and genre diversity.
Totally agree with this. Old Konami was truly special.
I'd also throw my hat in the ring for Compile. They are no Konami but I loved their output. Zanac x Zanac is one of the best shmups.
If anyone is curious: https://en.wikipedia...(company)#As_Compile
2-Sep-23 3:26pm
#8 Bleed_DukeBlue
Regarding Baldur's Gate 3, I'm not sure why it's a big deal for a game rated M to have M-rated content, but, for what it's worth, I haven't encountered any sex scenes in the 20+ hours I've played, and there's some cussing, but it's not distractingly noticeable or anything. It seems realistic for the world the characters are in. (It's a little weird to me that you're concerned about these things and not the gratuitous violence throughout the game (not that it bothers me either)).
As to why BG3 is better than previous RPGs, it takes the formula of Divinity: Original Sin 2 (another fantastic Larian game) with tremendously varied player skill options, backgrounds, and choices that actually matter and adds the lore of Baldur's Gate, a great story, better graphics, and even more freedom. I'm still in the first act, and I'm not even close to finding everything there is to find. I keep stumbling upon random, interesting stuff. My character can talk to animals, and I came upon a squirrel that was standing in my path. I chatted it up and realized that it was unhappy that we were walking through its territory, and I worked out a compromise with it to pass by without it biting me. I also talked to spiders, unlocked a basement door, and convinced them to attack some goblins for me. I've been faced with decisions about whether or not to sell my soul to a demon and whether or not to let a parasite take over my mind, giving me greater powers. I've made alliances with two factions, reaped the benefits of both, and then double-crossed one or both. You can use the environment in a ton of different ways, pushing enemies off of cliffs, conjuring water beneath them and then electrocuting them, covering them in grease and then throwing a fireball, etc. There are spells to charm people or change your appearance. The choices you have in conversation are heavily dependent on your stats and skills, and different characters solicit different responses from every NPC. All of the characters are fully voiced, and the voice acting is fantastic. BG3 isn't just the best game of the year. If it continues to hold up like this the rest of the way, it may just be the best game ever.
benstylus wrote:
Shane12m wrote:> So the debate is if gaming has peaked? I say absolutely not and games will only get> better. > > I don’t think the best games in the future are gonna come just from indie devs.> Games are expensive to make. The two best games this year are from big studios (Zelda> and Baldurs gate 3). That won’t change IMO At least some people feel like BOTW is a better overall game than TOTK. Here's an example: https://rpgranked.co... I can't speak as to Baldur's Gate 3 since I haven't played it, but my understanding is it definitely follows the recent M-rated game tropes of sex scenes and f bombs. What makes BG3 "better" than any RPG that came before it?
#8 Bleed_DukeBlue
Regarding Baldur's Gate 3, I'm not sure why it's a big deal for a game rated M to have M-rated content, but, for what it's worth, I haven't encountered any sex scenes in the 20+ hours I've played, and there's some cussing, but it's not distractingly noticeable or anything. It seems realistic for the world the characters are in. (It's a little weird to me that you're concerned about these things and not the gratuitous violence throughout the game (not that it bothers me either)).
As to why BG3 is better than previous RPGs, it takes the formula of Divinity: Original Sin 2 (another fantastic Larian game) with tremendously varied player skill options, backgrounds, and choices that actually matter and adds the lore of Baldur's Gate, a great story, better graphics, and even more freedom. I'm still in the first act, and I'm not even close to finding everything there is to find. I keep stumbling upon random, interesting stuff. My character can talk to animals, and I came upon a squirrel that was standing in my path. I chatted it up and realized that it was unhappy that we were walking through its territory, and I worked out a compromise with it to pass by without it biting me. I also talked to spiders, unlocked a basement door, and convinced them to attack some goblins for me. I've been faced with decisions about whether or not to sell my soul to a demon and whether or not to let a parasite take over my mind, giving me greater powers. I've made alliances with two factions, reaped the benefits of both, and then double-crossed one or both. You can use the environment in a ton of different ways, pushing enemies off of cliffs, conjuring water beneath them and then electrocuting them, covering them in grease and then throwing a fireball, etc. There are spells to charm people or change your appearance. The choices you have in conversation are heavily dependent on your stats and skills, and different characters solicit different responses from every NPC. All of the characters are fully voiced, and the voice acting is fantastic. BG3 isn't just the best game of the year. If it continues to hold up like this the rest of the way, it may just be the best game ever.
benstylus wrote:
Shane12m wrote:> So the debate is if gaming has peaked? I say absolutely not and games will only get> better. > > I don’t think the best games in the future are gonna come just from indie devs.> Games are expensive to make. The two best games this year are from big studios (Zelda> and Baldurs gate 3). That won’t change IMO At least some people feel like BOTW is a better overall game than TOTK. Here's an example: https://rpgranked.co... I can't speak as to Baldur's Gate 3 since I haven't played it, but my understanding is it definitely follows the recent M-rated game tropes of sex scenes and f bombs. What makes BG3 "better" than any RPG that came before it?
2-Sep-23 4:07pm
#9 Technos
When everything about the industry seems to have plateaued, from graphics to originality to sales, I don’t know you could realistically say that “the best is yet to come”. Seems more like it’s in the early (mid?) stages of decline.
There’s also the matter of how it was once primarily a Japanese industry, but today is a western one. Seems pretty obvious which one resonates with more people. A western dominated gaming industry doesn’t have the creativity in it to surpass what came before. It can only offer pale imitations.
#9 Technos
When everything about the industry seems to have plateaued, from graphics to originality to sales, I don’t know you could realistically say that “the best is yet to come”. Seems more like it’s in the early (mid?) stages of decline.
There’s also the matter of how it was once primarily a Japanese industry, but today is a western one. Seems pretty obvious which one resonates with more people. A western dominated gaming industry doesn’t have the creativity in it to surpass what came before. It can only offer pale imitations.
2-Sep-23 4:29pm
#10 MrBean
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come... And it's called Silk Song.
#10 MrBean
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come... And it's called Silk Song.
2-Sep-23 4:51pm
#11 Gypsy
MrBean wrote:
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come... And it's called Silk Song.
Reality? It's opinion since this is art and highly subjective. Different people will have different experiences.
I find a lot of new games are super boring. Mario Odyssey was the first mainline Mario game I couldn't be bothered to finish. Maybe 2 or 3 new games a year that I'm interested in with a typical year these days. Oft bloated, overloaded huds, boring writing that thinks it is better than it is. Satisfying gameplay is often lacking. No desire to even look at random Western Indiecrap from people that don't understand how to actually make a fun game (Euro devs especially guilty of this).
#11 Gypsy
MrBean wrote:
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come... And it's called Silk Song.
Reality? It's opinion since this is art and highly subjective. Different people will have different experiences.
I find a lot of new games are super boring. Mario Odyssey was the first mainline Mario game I couldn't be bothered to finish. Maybe 2 or 3 new games a year that I'm interested in with a typical year these days. Oft bloated, overloaded huds, boring writing that thinks it is better than it is. Satisfying gameplay is often lacking. No desire to even look at random Western Indiecrap from people that don't understand how to actually make a fun game (Euro devs especially guilty of this).
3-Sep-23 9:07am
#12 benstylus
Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:
Regarding Baldur's Gate 3, I'm not sure why it's a big deal for a game rated M to have M-rated content,
It isn't. But when the previous games in the series were rated teen, it's disheartening to see them decide they want to adultify it, as if adding m-rated elements improves it in any way.
For Mortal Kombat or GTA? Absolutely, that's almost the whole point of those games. But for a Dungeons & Dragons RPG, it's not necessary at all.
And for all the accessibility options that are becoming more and more prevalent, most m-rated games don't give the option to disable the m-rated parts. It's either all or nothing.
(It's a little weird to me that you're concerned about these things and not the gratuitous violence throughout the game (not that it bothers me either)).
Haven't played it so not aware of the gratuitous violence. Though with it being an rpg, combat is kind of expected... though if it's gory dismemberment then that's quite different than something where enemies just disappear when defeated.
... no what brought BG3 to mind was in my news feed some story about "All the sex scenes in BG3 ranked!" or something like that and I just had to shake my head and die a little inside knowing that (a) someone thought that was an article worth writing and (b) Google thinks it counts as newsworthy for me.
#12 benstylus
Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:
Regarding Baldur's Gate 3, I'm not sure why it's a big deal for a game rated M to have M-rated content,
It isn't. But when the previous games in the series were rated teen, it's disheartening to see them decide they want to adultify it, as if adding m-rated elements improves it in any way.
For Mortal Kombat or GTA? Absolutely, that's almost the whole point of those games. But for a Dungeons & Dragons RPG, it's not necessary at all.
And for all the accessibility options that are becoming more and more prevalent, most m-rated games don't give the option to disable the m-rated parts. It's either all or nothing.
(It's a little weird to me that you're concerned about these things and not the gratuitous violence throughout the game (not that it bothers me either)).
Haven't played it so not aware of the gratuitous violence. Though with it being an rpg, combat is kind of expected... though if it's gory dismemberment then that's quite different than something where enemies just disappear when defeated.
... no what brought BG3 to mind was in my news feed some story about "All the sex scenes in BG3 ranked!" or something like that and I just had to shake my head and die a little inside knowing that (a) someone thought that was an article worth writing and (b) Google thinks it counts as newsworthy for me.
3-Sep-23 9:36am
#13 benstylus
MrBean wrote:
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come...
Another thought I had is that yes there are obviously iterative improvements to games so if you have never played a video game before and are comparing a Super Mario Bros. to Super Mario Wonder without any context, it might be easy to declare Super Mario Wonder the better game, and probably rightly so.
But if you have played the entire spectrum of 2D platformers... Pac-Land, Mario, Sonic, Rayman, Giana Sisters, Donkey Kong, Ori, Hollow Knight, Mega Man, Shovel Knight, N, VVVVVV, Tanglewood, Thomas Was Alone, Commander Keen, Duke Nukem, Jill of the Jungle, Jazz Jackrabbit, Cosmo's Cosmic Adventure and the hundreds if not thousands of others I can't think of off the top of my head I'm sure you will find things about Mario Wonder that are better than all of those, and certain areas where it doesn't compare favorably.
Your breadth of experience might make it difficult for the game to truly wow you, even if in the end you decide it is the best 2D platformer ever by a small margin.
The nostalgia of course is the wow factor when we first started playing games, and of course again with every major leap forward in technology or game design. But are we still getting the wow factor regularly, or only in brief shining moments?
Are we now playing games because it's what we have always done, and we simply don't know how to not play them anymore?
#13 benstylus
MrBean wrote:
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come...
Another thought I had is that yes there are obviously iterative improvements to games so if you have never played a video game before and are comparing a Super Mario Bros. to Super Mario Wonder without any context, it might be easy to declare Super Mario Wonder the better game, and probably rightly so.
But if you have played the entire spectrum of 2D platformers... Pac-Land, Mario, Sonic, Rayman, Giana Sisters, Donkey Kong, Ori, Hollow Knight, Mega Man, Shovel Knight, N, VVVVVV, Tanglewood, Thomas Was Alone, Commander Keen, Duke Nukem, Jill of the Jungle, Jazz Jackrabbit, Cosmo's Cosmic Adventure and the hundreds if not thousands of others I can't think of off the top of my head I'm sure you will find things about Mario Wonder that are better than all of those, and certain areas where it doesn't compare favorably.
Your breadth of experience might make it difficult for the game to truly wow you, even if in the end you decide it is the best 2D platformer ever by a small margin.
The nostalgia of course is the wow factor when we first started playing games, and of course again with every major leap forward in technology or game design. But are we still getting the wow factor regularly, or only in brief shining moments?
Are we now playing games because it's what we have always done, and we simply don't know how to not play them anymore?
3-Sep-23 9:56am
#15 nonamesleft
MrBean wrote:
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come... And it's called Silk Song. 😆 One of the first things I saw when I googled silk song was "is Silk Song ever coming out?"
#15 nonamesleft
MrBean wrote:
Massive rose colored glasses for the games of old. Nostalgia runs hard but reality is, games do continue to get better and the best is yet to come... And it's called Silk Song. 😆 One of the first things I saw when I googled silk song was "is Silk Song ever coming out?"
3-Sep-23 12:42pm
#16 Slickriven
One aspect that has forever changed things with games is the patchable status they now enjoy. Does that mean most games before patches were possible are better, clearly no. But I think we all understand how being able to patch a game changed how games get made and have their lifetime support and expectations handled.
Industry focus shifts have impacts as well. In the 80's to early 00's the focus was on non-patchable home consoles and dedicated handhelds, and PC too. But as patches and phone games became more popular, the audience changed and the offerings did too. Not to mention attention spans seem to have changed as well.
To the core question of the thread, I don't think there's 1 single answer. Depending on when someone started gaming, what level of nostalgia they ascribe, what types of games they like, how much gaming they do overall, and more factors will all contribute to what they think about when the best game was or will be.
I'm not sure I could even supply my 'best game' (that's already been released) selection right now and I've beat over 335 games in the last 4 years. There are lots of great ones in what I've recently played, also lots of meh in there. Plus all of the games I played prior or have yet to play.
I think the core of the question is really based around is the industry producing overall better games and moving in a good direction vs backsliding and producing more junk. Answering that is still a mixed bag because not every trend that comes along is a good, not horrible one. Microtransactions suck, ads in games suck, the mentioned Ubisoft model from the AC 'glory days' wasn't the greatest, etc. But those things are generally trends and continually evolve. Right now we get 2 main flavors, big budget games that can hit or miss vs much cheaper/smaller indies that tend to hit more. But with indies we pay less and have lower/altered expectations and they are more often labors of love and devotion from their creators. Those 2 paths are likely to continue IMO and because of them well get some great games from both groups and some duds. But the big players do get buckets of crap if their hyped games stink and they generally push to fix that and learn from it, b/c otherwise profits trump all and studios get shuttered when they don't perform.
Ultimately games are an art form and are subjective to the consumer of the medium. I'm certain we all couldn't agree on the best song, album, book, movie, painting or even genre or era for most of those. So trying to pick/agree on the best game is not really possible. Interesting topic though.
#16 Slickriven
One aspect that has forever changed things with games is the patchable status they now enjoy. Does that mean most games before patches were possible are better, clearly no. But I think we all understand how being able to patch a game changed how games get made and have their lifetime support and expectations handled.
Industry focus shifts have impacts as well. In the 80's to early 00's the focus was on non-patchable home consoles and dedicated handhelds, and PC too. But as patches and phone games became more popular, the audience changed and the offerings did too. Not to mention attention spans seem to have changed as well.
To the core question of the thread, I don't think there's 1 single answer. Depending on when someone started gaming, what level of nostalgia they ascribe, what types of games they like, how much gaming they do overall, and more factors will all contribute to what they think about when the best game was or will be.
I'm not sure I could even supply my 'best game' (that's already been released) selection right now and I've beat over 335 games in the last 4 years. There are lots of great ones in what I've recently played, also lots of meh in there. Plus all of the games I played prior or have yet to play.
I think the core of the question is really based around is the industry producing overall better games and moving in a good direction vs backsliding and producing more junk. Answering that is still a mixed bag because not every trend that comes along is a good, not horrible one. Microtransactions suck, ads in games suck, the mentioned Ubisoft model from the AC 'glory days' wasn't the greatest, etc. But those things are generally trends and continually evolve. Right now we get 2 main flavors, big budget games that can hit or miss vs much cheaper/smaller indies that tend to hit more. But with indies we pay less and have lower/altered expectations and they are more often labors of love and devotion from their creators. Those 2 paths are likely to continue IMO and because of them well get some great games from both groups and some duds. But the big players do get buckets of crap if their hyped games stink and they generally push to fix that and learn from it, b/c otherwise profits trump all and studios get shuttered when they don't perform.
Ultimately games are an art form and are subjective to the consumer of the medium. I'm certain we all couldn't agree on the best song, album, book, movie, painting or even genre or era for most of those. So trying to pick/agree on the best game is not really possible. Interesting topic though.
3-Sep-23 2:01pm
#17 benstylus
Slickriven wrote:
Ultimately games are an art form and are subjective to the consumer of the medium.
Ultimately, games are also a business.
A game can be a labor of love, but if it doesn't generate a profit it is generally seen as a waste of resources in the eyes of a publisher.
Small indie devs can make a labor of love game because the stakes are often fairly low if it fails to take off.
But as companies grow and hire more people, the stakes get higher and game design trends naturally start to turn more and more towards how to make the most money rather than what necessarily makes the best games. In some cases those two goals overlap. In other situations they are directly at odds with each other, and so the company must choose whether to compromise the quality of their game, or risk not making enough money to stay in business.
I'm certain we all couldn't agree on the best song,
The A Team theme song is the one I always come back to.
#17 benstylus
Slickriven wrote:
Ultimately games are an art form and are subjective to the consumer of the medium.
Ultimately, games are also a business.
A game can be a labor of love, but if it doesn't generate a profit it is generally seen as a waste of resources in the eyes of a publisher.
Small indie devs can make a labor of love game because the stakes are often fairly low if it fails to take off.
But as companies grow and hire more people, the stakes get higher and game design trends naturally start to turn more and more towards how to make the most money rather than what necessarily makes the best games. In some cases those two goals overlap. In other situations they are directly at odds with each other, and so the company must choose whether to compromise the quality of their game, or risk not making enough money to stay in business.
I'm certain we all couldn't agree on the best song,
The A Team theme song is the one I always come back to.
3-Sep-23 6:49pm
#18 Bleed_DukeBlue
Fair enough. I'm actually all for options. I have no problem with players being able to leave out the sex scenes or tone down the blood, etc. I actually did encounter where the sex scenes could come up for the first time when I was playing this last night. They're pretty obvious, as characters directly solicit you, and you can say no and still progress the game, so the sex scenes are completely avoidable (at least so far). The one scene I did see actually furthered a plotline and seems like it may be important to getting one character to join you (but it's completely possible to proceed without recruiting this character). I do agree that it's weird to have articles about ranking the scenes and so forth.
benstylus wrote:
Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:> Regarding Baldur's Gate 3, I'm not sure why it's a big deal for a game rated M to> have M-rated content, It isn't. But when the previous games in the series were rated teen, it's disheartening to see them decide they want to adultify it, as if adding m-rated elements improves it in any way. For Mortal Kombat or GTA? Absolutely, that's almost the whole point of those games. But for a Dungeons & Dragons RPG, it's not necessary at all. And for all the accessibility options that are becoming more and more prevalent, most m-rated games don't give the option to disable the m-rated parts. It's either all or nothing. > (It's a little weird to me that you're concerned about these things and not the> gratuitous violence throughout the game (not that it bothers me either)). > Haven't played it so not aware of the gratuitous violence. Though with it being an rpg, combat is kind of expected... though if it's gory dismemberment then that's quite different than something where enemies just disappear when defeated. ... no what brought BG3 to mind was in my news feed some story about "All the sex scenes in BG3 ranked!" or something like that and I just had to shake my head and die a little inside knowing that (a) someone thought that was an article worth writing and (b) Google thinks it counts as newsworthy for me.
#18 Bleed_DukeBlue
Fair enough. I'm actually all for options. I have no problem with players being able to leave out the sex scenes or tone down the blood, etc. I actually did encounter where the sex scenes could come up for the first time when I was playing this last night. They're pretty obvious, as characters directly solicit you, and you can say no and still progress the game, so the sex scenes are completely avoidable (at least so far). The one scene I did see actually furthered a plotline and seems like it may be important to getting one character to join you (but it's completely possible to proceed without recruiting this character). I do agree that it's weird to have articles about ranking the scenes and so forth.
benstylus wrote:
Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:> Regarding Baldur's Gate 3, I'm not sure why it's a big deal for a game rated M to> have M-rated content, It isn't. But when the previous games in the series were rated teen, it's disheartening to see them decide they want to adultify it, as if adding m-rated elements improves it in any way. For Mortal Kombat or GTA? Absolutely, that's almost the whole point of those games. But for a Dungeons & Dragons RPG, it's not necessary at all. And for all the accessibility options that are becoming more and more prevalent, most m-rated games don't give the option to disable the m-rated parts. It's either all or nothing. > (It's a little weird to me that you're concerned about these things and not the> gratuitous violence throughout the game (not that it bothers me either)). > Haven't played it so not aware of the gratuitous violence. Though with it being an rpg, combat is kind of expected... though if it's gory dismemberment then that's quite different than something where enemies just disappear when defeated. ... no what brought BG3 to mind was in my news feed some story about "All the sex scenes in BG3 ranked!" or something like that and I just had to shake my head and die a little inside knowing that (a) someone thought that was an article worth writing and (b) Google thinks it counts as newsworthy for me.
3-Sep-23 7:34pm
#19 Staraang
I like to think the best games are yet to come. Though ultimately it will be in the eye of the beholder because any new games that come out have the deck stacked against them. They’re facing off against a legion of classic games whose perceived quality is magnified by nostalgia. So it’s never going to be a level playing field. A new game has to be leaps and bounds better to overcome the nostalgia factor that is making previous classics appear better perhaps than they ought to be.
For example, my favorite game is Chrono Trigger. But I’m not blind to the possibility that someone can make a superior RPG. Maybe it’s even already been made. But still the game was special when I played it and I’m nostalgic about it on top of that. New games won’t have that regardless of quality. The other thing is, although gaming is still a part of my life, it’s not nearly what it used to be for me. So that kind of cements Chrono’s place for me. And I’m certain there are other people in a similar frame of mind as I am.
#19 Staraang
I like to think the best games are yet to come. Though ultimately it will be in the eye of the beholder because any new games that come out have the deck stacked against them. They’re facing off against a legion of classic games whose perceived quality is magnified by nostalgia. So it’s never going to be a level playing field. A new game has to be leaps and bounds better to overcome the nostalgia factor that is making previous classics appear better perhaps than they ought to be.
For example, my favorite game is Chrono Trigger. But I’m not blind to the possibility that someone can make a superior RPG. Maybe it’s even already been made. But still the game was special when I played it and I’m nostalgic about it on top of that. New games won’t have that regardless of quality. The other thing is, although gaming is still a part of my life, it’s not nearly what it used to be for me. So that kind of cements Chrono’s place for me. And I’m certain there are other people in a similar frame of mind as I am.
3-Sep-23 7:50pm
#20 nonamesleft
Staraang wrote:
I like to think the best games are yet to come. Though ultimately it will be in the eye of the beholder because any new games that come out have the deck stacked against them. They’re facing off against a legion of classic games whose perceived quality is magnified by nostalgia. So it’s never going to be a level playing field. A new game has to be leaps and bounds better to overcome the nostalgia factor that is making previous classics appear better perhaps than they ought to be. For example, my favorite game is Chrono Trigger. But I’m not blind to the possibility that someone can make a superior RPG. Maybe it’s even already been made. But still the game was special when I played it and I’m nostalgic about it on top of that. New games won’t have that regardless of quality. The other thing is, although gaming is still a part of my life, it’s not nearly what it used to be for me. So that kind of cements Chrono’s place for me. And I’m certain there are other people in a similar frame of mind as I am.Chrono Trigger has a great soundtrack. Fun game too.
#20 nonamesleft
Staraang wrote:
I like to think the best games are yet to come. Though ultimately it will be in the eye of the beholder because any new games that come out have the deck stacked against them. They’re facing off against a legion of classic games whose perceived quality is magnified by nostalgia. So it’s never going to be a level playing field. A new game has to be leaps and bounds better to overcome the nostalgia factor that is making previous classics appear better perhaps than they ought to be. For example, my favorite game is Chrono Trigger. But I’m not blind to the possibility that someone can make a superior RPG. Maybe it’s even already been made. But still the game was special when I played it and I’m nostalgic about it on top of that. New games won’t have that regardless of quality. The other thing is, although gaming is still a part of my life, it’s not nearly what it used to be for me. So that kind of cements Chrono’s place for me. And I’m certain there are other people in a similar frame of mind as I am.Chrono Trigger has a great soundtrack. Fun game too.
3-Sep-23 7:54pm
#21 nonamesleft
I think that nostalgia can play a huge part in which games people like vs games that are yet to come.
Even if I play a great current gen game, when I look back at certain games I've played from previous gens and really enjoyed, I have a particular fondness for those games. I think it's partially the nostalgia. Although it could also be that those games were fantastic :D
#21 nonamesleft
I think that nostalgia can play a huge part in which games people like vs games that are yet to come.
Even if I play a great current gen game, when I look back at certain games I've played from previous gens and really enjoyed, I have a particular fondness for those games. I think it's partially the nostalgia. Although it could also be that those games were fantastic :D
Best games of all time... already out or still to come?