The Great Star War (Star Wars Discussion)
22-Jun-18 9:29pm
#1 theJaw
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
image
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
#1 theJaw
| This topic had many older posts which were moved here: http://gametz.com/Ge... |
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
image
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
22-Dec-20 10:34pm
#201 razeak
theJaw wrote:
razeak wrote:> I need a good Rogue Squadron movie. Looks like there’s a good chance you’ll be getting one.
They picked a good director. She's also inspired by her dad being an F4 pilot. I hope that all translates well.
No baby yoda, no viewers.
#201 razeak
theJaw wrote:
razeak wrote:> I need a good Rogue Squadron movie. Looks like there’s a good chance you’ll be getting one.
They picked a good director. She's also inspired by her dad being an F4 pilot. I hope that all translates well.
No baby yoda, no viewers.
8-Jan-21 2:30am
#202 theJaw
I was watching a video just now and it got me thinking about Star Wars nitpicks again, so I just wanted to type up my overly-long, drawn out opinion on one of those nitpicks. I'm sure nobody cares and I expect either silence or indifferent comments, but I felt like typing a bit.
One of the major issues a lot of people had with the sequel trilogy is that the existence of the First Order suggested that nothing was accomplished in the OT but they always seem to leave the entire "government" aspect out of their arguments.
The Empire was the literal government of the galaxy once Palpatine made it that way in Episode III, morphing the Galactic Republic into the "First Galactic Empire". Palpatine and Darth Vader dying marked the end of that government, left what was the Empire splintered, and the New Republic was able to move in as the new governing force in the Galaxy. The First Order being formidable 3 decades later is sort of irrelevant, I'd say a government shift like the one that took place after Return of the Jedi is quite the accomplishment for the OT heroes... it's just that the galaxy was never ACTUALLY going to remain peaceful for the rest of time and I'm not sure why folks against all the First Order stuff really thought that'd be the case.
Over the course of 30(!) years, the First Order was able survive and become the formidable force we saw in The Force Awakens. They didn't start that way, they were built back up over 3 decades while the New Republic ruled. We then see their attempt to reassert their dominance when they wipe out the capital of the New Republic and several other governing planets in The Force Awakens, and the following two movies are set to the backdrop of the New Republic's Resistance attempting to resist the First Order's coup attempt.
This sort of thing happens a lot throughout our own, real world history... a major empire falls, a new empire moves in, and splintered factions of the former empire exist until they're either wiped out for good or eventually raise to prominence again after a period of time. I think that sort of thing being reflected in Star Wars was pretty cool even if I do agree seeing those "in between" years would have also been cool.
And I know, the loudest "Disney Star Wars" detractors love to argue that SW doesn't need to reflect real life (especially after all the "weapons deals" and "rich wartime benefactor" stuff from The Last Jedi) and believe that it should remain in the "fantasy realm" that sticks to cookie cutter story and character archetypes - but lots of those folks ironically tend to be the most vocal sect of fans upset about the Expanded Universe material being erased from "canon" (or they're folks who dislike how this reflects their own country's history, but that's a different issue for another time). I find it real strange when said EU purists act outraged at the idea of the First Order rising to prominence after the fall of the Empire (and rule of the New Republic) really strange considering the BEST of the EU material dealt with these same exact themes. The Thrawn Trilogy, for example, is about a splinter of the Empire returning to the galaxy lead by Thrawn to reassert their control. There are then several other factions over the course of the books and comics who try to rise as the primary rulers of the galaxy, so it baffles me when folks use the First Order rising to true prominence 3 decades after the OT to argue that the sequels somehow erase the accomplishments of Luke and the Rebels in the OT. They literally won the government back for the entire galaxy, and the Resistance was ultimately able to stifle the First (and Last) Order's attempt to retake that government.
(DISCLAIMER: I know this is only one of many other "major issues" folks took with the sequels and probably ranks low on that list, but I just had the thought pop in my head and felt like typing about it and, hopefully, discussing it with anyone who cares to.)
#202 theJaw
I was watching a video just now and it got me thinking about Star Wars nitpicks again, so I just wanted to type up my overly-long, drawn out opinion on one of those nitpicks. I'm sure nobody cares and I expect either silence or indifferent comments, but I felt like typing a bit.
One of the major issues a lot of people had with the sequel trilogy is that the existence of the First Order suggested that nothing was accomplished in the OT but they always seem to leave the entire "government" aspect out of their arguments.
The Empire was the literal government of the galaxy once Palpatine made it that way in Episode III, morphing the Galactic Republic into the "First Galactic Empire". Palpatine and Darth Vader dying marked the end of that government, left what was the Empire splintered, and the New Republic was able to move in as the new governing force in the Galaxy. The First Order being formidable 3 decades later is sort of irrelevant, I'd say a government shift like the one that took place after Return of the Jedi is quite the accomplishment for the OT heroes... it's just that the galaxy was never ACTUALLY going to remain peaceful for the rest of time and I'm not sure why folks against all the First Order stuff really thought that'd be the case.
Over the course of 30(!) years, the First Order was able survive and become the formidable force we saw in The Force Awakens. They didn't start that way, they were built back up over 3 decades while the New Republic ruled. We then see their attempt to reassert their dominance when they wipe out the capital of the New Republic and several other governing planets in The Force Awakens, and the following two movies are set to the backdrop of the New Republic's Resistance attempting to resist the First Order's coup attempt.
This sort of thing happens a lot throughout our own, real world history... a major empire falls, a new empire moves in, and splintered factions of the former empire exist until they're either wiped out for good or eventually raise to prominence again after a period of time. I think that sort of thing being reflected in Star Wars was pretty cool even if I do agree seeing those "in between" years would have also been cool.
And I know, the loudest "Disney Star Wars" detractors love to argue that SW doesn't need to reflect real life (especially after all the "weapons deals" and "rich wartime benefactor" stuff from The Last Jedi) and believe that it should remain in the "fantasy realm" that sticks to cookie cutter story and character archetypes - but lots of those folks ironically tend to be the most vocal sect of fans upset about the Expanded Universe material being erased from "canon" (or they're folks who dislike how this reflects their own country's history, but that's a different issue for another time). I find it real strange when said EU purists act outraged at the idea of the First Order rising to prominence after the fall of the Empire (and rule of the New Republic) really strange considering the BEST of the EU material dealt with these same exact themes. The Thrawn Trilogy, for example, is about a splinter of the Empire returning to the galaxy lead by Thrawn to reassert their control. There are then several other factions over the course of the books and comics who try to rise as the primary rulers of the galaxy, so it baffles me when folks use the First Order rising to true prominence 3 decades after the OT to argue that the sequels somehow erase the accomplishments of Luke and the Rebels in the OT. They literally won the government back for the entire galaxy, and the Resistance was ultimately able to stifle the First (and Last) Order's attempt to retake that government.
(DISCLAIMER: I know this is only one of many other "major issues" folks took with the sequels and probably ranks low on that list, but I just had the thought pop in my head and felt like typing about it and, hopefully, discussing it with anyone who cares to.)
8-Jan-21 9:40am
#203 Grenadier
The idea that fantasy worlds shouldn't reflect real-life issues is flawed in and of itself. Who do they think is writing these things? Oh yeah: people in the real world. Those writers draw inspiration and themes from real life, whether intentional or not. More often, it is intentional.
Star Trek is a great example. Roddenberry explicitly created the show so he could tell social and political stories, using the science fiction setting to get it past the censors and advertisers. Nowadays, you have people losing their minds if Star Trek dares to tell a socially relevant story. Newsflash folks: your lack of historical and cultural knowledge is showing.
Star Wars isn't all that different. You've got the plucky Rebellion against a totalitarian regime. Classic good vs evil. But you've got to get that the writers are going to be influenced by 20th and 21st century history while writing it. Stormtroopers are not something Lucas made up. The name goes back to World War I Germany. The X-Wing fighter scenes are straight out of World War II movies. Lucas has given interviews where he claims the politics of the Viet Nam era fed directly into his early draft scripts. And so on. Star Wars always had the real life elements to it, from day one. If people didn't understand that, that's on them, not the makers of the sequels.
#203 Grenadier
The idea that fantasy worlds shouldn't reflect real-life issues is flawed in and of itself. Who do they think is writing these things? Oh yeah: people in the real world. Those writers draw inspiration and themes from real life, whether intentional or not. More often, it is intentional.
Star Trek is a great example. Roddenberry explicitly created the show so he could tell social and political stories, using the science fiction setting to get it past the censors and advertisers. Nowadays, you have people losing their minds if Star Trek dares to tell a socially relevant story. Newsflash folks: your lack of historical and cultural knowledge is showing.
Star Wars isn't all that different. You've got the plucky Rebellion against a totalitarian regime. Classic good vs evil. But you've got to get that the writers are going to be influenced by 20th and 21st century history while writing it. Stormtroopers are not something Lucas made up. The name goes back to World War I Germany. The X-Wing fighter scenes are straight out of World War II movies. Lucas has given interviews where he claims the politics of the Viet Nam era fed directly into his early draft scripts. And so on. Star Wars always had the real life elements to it, from day one. If people didn't understand that, that's on them, not the makers of the sequels.
8-Jan-21 11:38am
#204 theJaw
Yah agreed. Lucas also talked about likening the Empire in Episode III to George W Bush’s administration, even having Anakin almost quoting Bush word-for-word at one point. The political/real life context was always there with Star Wars, the OT just took a very “good vs bad” approach to it because, to be honest, those movies are pretty surface-level fantasy and they tend to focus more on the Skywalker family drama more than the details of the war that acts as the backdrop to those stories. But that’s exactly why people loved the EU - because it DID delve into those more layered details and gave us a look at the inner-workings of both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire and the political motivations of both. People used to clamor for movies integrating those aspects. So to now claim that this sort of thing “isn’t Star Wars” doesn’t really make sense. It’s one thing to be upset that the stories you spent time with are no longer “canon” (despite never being true canon in the first place), but to manufacture an argument that there’s no place for those aspects in SW just reads as an attempt to pile on the Disney/sequel hate.
#204 theJaw
Yah agreed. Lucas also talked about likening the Empire in Episode III to George W Bush’s administration, even having Anakin almost quoting Bush word-for-word at one point. The political/real life context was always there with Star Wars, the OT just took a very “good vs bad” approach to it because, to be honest, those movies are pretty surface-level fantasy and they tend to focus more on the Skywalker family drama more than the details of the war that acts as the backdrop to those stories. But that’s exactly why people loved the EU - because it DID delve into those more layered details and gave us a look at the inner-workings of both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire and the political motivations of both. People used to clamor for movies integrating those aspects. So to now claim that this sort of thing “isn’t Star Wars” doesn’t really make sense. It’s one thing to be upset that the stories you spent time with are no longer “canon” (despite never being true canon in the first place), but to manufacture an argument that there’s no place for those aspects in SW just reads as an attempt to pile on the Disney/sequel hate.
30-Jan-21 6:58pm
#205 Kommie
I keep seeing stuff pop up about the ST being remade on Disney+. @theJaw ? you see anything about this?
#205 Kommie
I keep seeing stuff pop up about the ST being remade on Disney+. @theJaw ? you see anything about this?
30-Jan-21 6:58pm
#206 theJaw
Kommie wrote:
I keep seeing stuff pop up about the ST being remade on Disney+. @theJaw ? you see anything about this?
Will never happen in a million years
#206 theJaw
Kommie wrote:
I keep seeing stuff pop up about the ST being remade on Disney+. @theJaw ? you see anything about this?
Will never happen in a million years
30-Jan-21 7:15pm
#208 theJaw
Some movies are good, some are bad, and that goes for more than SW obv. So I don't think they should remake any of them solely to make "better" versions geared directly toward the people who disliked the "original" versions. I'm not a huge fan of the PT, some people are. I can live with it, just like the anti-Disney neckbeards can live with the ST existing the way it does.
#208 theJaw
Some movies are good, some are bad, and that goes for more than SW obv. So I don't think they should remake any of them solely to make "better" versions geared directly toward the people who disliked the "original" versions. I'm not a huge fan of the PT, some people are. I can live with it, just like the anti-Disney neckbeards can live with the ST existing the way it does.
30-Jan-21 7:38pm
#209 Grenadier
No one is going to remake any of them for the simple reason that they will make more money doing something new.
#209 Grenadier
No one is going to remake any of them for the simple reason that they will make more money doing something new.
30-Jan-21 7:40pm
#210 Kommie
Hopefully they actually learn from their mistake and have a coherent trilogy.
#210 Kommie
Hopefully they actually learn from their mistake and have a coherent trilogy.
31-Jan-21 2:14am
#211 Grenadier
Kommie wrote:
Hopefully they actually learn from their mistake and have a coherent trilogy.
Or just tell a story in one-and-done movie. Worked for Rogue One.
#211 Grenadier
Kommie wrote:
Hopefully they actually learn from their mistake and have a coherent trilogy.
Or just tell a story in one-and-done movie. Worked for Rogue One.
7-Mar-21 4:14pm
#213 theJaw
http://awinegarner.s...
A fan adapted Colin Trevorrow’s leaked Episode IX script into a web comic and it’s even better than just reading the script. The art isn’t INCREDIBLE or anything, and a lot of it is unfinished as far as color and the final 2 issues goes, but it gets the job done and is better than anything I could draw haha. It’s fun to at least see the story in a visual medium.
Ah, what could have been.
#213 theJaw
http://awinegarner.s...
A fan adapted Colin Trevorrow’s leaked Episode IX script into a web comic and it’s even better than just reading the script. The art isn’t INCREDIBLE or anything, and a lot of it is unfinished as far as color and the final 2 issues goes, but it gets the job done and is better than anything I could draw haha. It’s fun to at least see the story in a visual medium.
Ah, what could have been.
7-Mar-21 11:26pm
#215 theJaw
Yah the more I read it, the more I feel stupid about that comment haha. Dude is a pretty great artist to be honest
#215 theJaw
Yah the more I read it, the more I feel stupid about that comment haha. Dude is a pretty great artist to be honest
8-Mar-21 9:26am
#216 Scott
theJaw wrote:
http://awinegarner.s... A fan adapted Colin Trevorrow’s leaked Episode IX script into a web comic and it’s even better than just reading the script. The art isn’t INCREDIBLE or anything, and a lot of it is unfinished as far as color and the final 2 issues goes, but it gets the job done and is better than anything I could draw haha. It’s fun to at least see the story in a visual medium. Ah, what could have been.
So his story ends with Rey getting hit in both eyes with a lightsaber, leaving her blinded (maybe dead)? Lame. Good thing we didn't get any of that garbage instead of the awesome Ep IX we did get!
#216 Scott
theJaw wrote:
http://awinegarner.s... A fan adapted Colin Trevorrow’s leaked Episode IX script into a web comic and it’s even better than just reading the script. The art isn’t INCREDIBLE or anything, and a lot of it is unfinished as far as color and the final 2 issues goes, but it gets the job done and is better than anything I could draw haha. It’s fun to at least see the story in a visual medium. Ah, what could have been.
So his story ends with Rey getting hit in both eyes with a lightsaber, leaving her blinded (maybe dead)? Lame. Good thing we didn't get any of that garbage instead of the awesome Ep IX we did get!
8-Mar-21 10:03am
#218 theJaw
@Scott def not dead, but the blindness thing is a classic samurai film trope which always work well with SW. The duel itself would have been way more badass than the one we ended up with, but please go on about how that absolutely cringe worthy “Rey who?” moment was a better ending
#218 theJaw
@Scott def not dead, but the blindness thing is a classic samurai film trope which always work well with SW. The duel itself would have been way more badass than the one we ended up with, but please go on about how that absolutely cringe worthy “Rey who?” moment was a better ending
8-Mar-21 11:38am
#219 Scott
I'll take a feel-good ending over the protagonist being blinded and left for dead as the ending to a trilogy any day.
#219 Scott
I'll take a feel-good ending over the protagonist being blinded and left for dead as the ending to a trilogy any day.
8-Mar-21 11:40am
#220 theJaw
Scott wrote:
I'll take a feel-good ending over the protagonist being blinded and left for dead as the ending to a trilogy any day.
That isn’t how the script ends haha, that comic is unfinished. She ends up restarting the Jedi order and it’s just as “feel good” but without the forced metaphorical familial tie.
#220 theJaw
Scott wrote:
I'll take a feel-good ending over the protagonist being blinded and left for dead as the ending to a trilogy any day.
That isn’t how the script ends haha, that comic is unfinished. She ends up restarting the Jedi order and it’s just as “feel good” but without the forced metaphorical familial tie.
8-Mar-21 11:43am
#221 Scott
Oh ok. I said "so his story ends..." in my previous post and you didn't correct me, so I figured that must be it.
#221 Scott
Oh ok. I said "so his story ends..." in my previous post and you didn't correct me, so I figured that must be it.
The Great Star War (Star Wars Discussion)