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Banning Loans, baby steps
13-Jan-19 11:26am
#1
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews

I've decided to ban loans from GameTZ. So I'm starting to take some steps to remove them from GameTZ and get the word out that they are no longer allowed here.

I just removed any topic in the forum that had "loan" in its subject.

If you see a new topic go up asking for a loan in some way, please use moderate on it to let me know. I'll remove it and try to talk to the people involved so they know it's no longer allowed.

This transition may take months and there are likely other steps coming. Things I'm considering:

o Add a new rule against loans on the Rules page.
o Search recent trades and send pm to users who have been doing loans to let them know.
o Send an email announcement about it.

If you have suggestions on things I can do to get loans off GameTZ, let me know.

Thanks for your support in this.
13-Jan-19 3:41pm
#2
Porksta
GameTZ Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally

I think it is time for a new newsletter!

13-Jan-19 5:10pm
#3
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa

yes

(I think you may have also deleted the topic in the Moderator forum where I brought this up? smile)
13-Jan-19 6:13pm
#4
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews

Yeah, most of the topics discussing loans were also moved to a private forum. You (as a mod) actually have access to that private forum "Loans" if you want to check it. We could move it back to General or something too, though it's long and has a lot of random stuff in it. I didn't actually delete any topics, just put them in a private Loans forum, so we can check stuff there, if there's some need to do that.

I wanted to take this step so people won't see examples of others asking for loans then do it too. It seemed like a good first step and was fairly easy too...
13-Jan-19 7:02pm
#5
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews

I just searched the completed trades by the word "loan," and it looks like PayPal loans became a thing in 2006 (there were several trades involving loaning items to one another prior to that). Since the first one completed on 7/17/2006, there have been almost 4,200 completed loan trades on the site. Are these going to be deleted, or modified in some way?

Although I did quite a few way back when, I quit doing them in 2008 for personal reasons. I made good money and only had to file 2 BTRs for relatively small amounts, but I started to feel like a payday lender, and was worried about how many people were getting repeat loans for higher and higher amounts. And I kept getting PMs asking for PayPal loans for a couple years after I had stopped.

I fully support this decision, but I'm curious what made you decide now to ban them after 12 and a half years?
13-Jan-19 8:01pm
#6
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews

I'm unsure what to do about existing loan trades. Deleting them would be drastic, maybe I could hide them in some way. I don't know.

That recent ban-loans topic got me to rethink loans. I never liked them, wish they'd never happened here, but had felt I shouldn't stop people because of my personal beliefs. There have been a lot of BTRs, though statistically, it's not that much. But, I think many who give a loan and get ripped off, never file a BTR too. Seeing that the majority of the community seem to be against loans now helped convince me. I'm still unsure about the extra effort it may take, but I'm willing to give it a try. If loans stopped on GameTZ, I'd be much happier.
13-Jan-19 9:10pm
#7
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews

I did a Google search for PayPal loan, and GameTZ doesn't even show up on the results anymore. I think PayPal promoting their own lending solutions is part of it, but also the number of loans has dropped significantly from 10 years ago.

I remember when it seemed like half the marketplace topics in any given day were people asking for PayPal loans.

I do think sending a newsletter or a mass PM would spread the word better than just a topic in Site Feedback.

Also, not sure how much you can do on the trade end of things, but is it possible to flag for review any new trades pended with "Loan" or "repayment" on either side, or "PP" or "Paypal" on both sides? You could then issue a specific PM to those folks to let them know PayPal loans are no longer allowed.
14-Jan-19 8:02am
#8
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews

I think GameTZ just doesn't show up well in Google results in general (since several years ago afaik, despite much effort on my part to do better, SEO, etc).

Yeah, something like that, maybe semi-automated search then I'd copy/paste some standard notification/warning pm to people still doing loans. I have noticed there are less loan topics and reactions to people asking for loans have gotten fairly negative (if not extremely harshly unpleasant, which I didn't discourage). So, it seemed like not allowing new loan topics is a good first step.

I probably will do the newsletter-like email announcement thing. I don't really have a way to do the mass pm thing. Well, maybe I do, I forget. It has been a while since I did something like that. I vaguely recall emailing a lot of people can cause trouble too (emails can get rejected as spam in various ways... so, we'll see).
14-Jan-19 1:11pm
#9
DCGX
GameTZ Subscriber 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (11) Has Written 56 Reviews

yes Good move.

14-Jan-19 1:53pm
#10
Archer
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review

The real GTZ starts here?
15-Jan-19 2:20pm
#11
bonanza125
700 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally

bill wrote:
I'm unsure what to do about existing loan trades. Deleting them would be drastic, maybe I could hide them in some way. I don't know. That recent ban-loans topic got me to rethink loans. I never liked them, wish they'd never happened here, but had felt I shouldn't stop people because of my personal beliefs. There have been a lot of BTRs, though statistically, it's not that much. But, I think many who give a loan and get ripped off, never file a BTR too. Seeing that the majority of the community seem to be against loans now helped convince me. I'm still unsure about the extra effort it may take, but I'm willing to give it a try. If loans stopped on GameTZ, I'd be much happier.
I am glad you made the decision to ban loans. A lot of people have been ripped off from loans or just struggle to pay whatever they owe back. As far as the existing loan trades I would say if you decide to delete all existing loan trades I do agree with you about sending an email to everybody that on this such date all loan trades will be deleted. Make sure they have a record of whatever was loaned out. Chances are a lot of those old loan trades aren't getting paid back anyway.
15-Jan-19 2:45pm
#12
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa

I personally think you should leave past trades for loans. They were allowed at the time and can add meaning to accounts (even if the trade went fine, of course).

We've allowed much less "important" or "significant" trade reports.
15-Jan-19 4:31pm
#13
Porksta
GameTZ Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally

John wrote:
I personally think you should leave past trades for loans. They were allowed at the time and can add meaning to accounts (even if the trade went fine, of course). We've allowed much less "important" or "significant" trade reports.This. Why not delete freebie or Secret Santa trades as well?

15-Jan-19 4:35pm
#14
Gypsy
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (6 minutes ago)

I believe the loan trades should remain in the history. They are part of the history of this site, even if some people view it as a bad portion. I understand the logic behind removing them, but as long as it is clear loans are no longer allowed it should be fine.
15-Jan-19 4:43pm
#15
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa

Porksta wrote:
This. Why not delete freebie or Secret Santa trades as well?
To note it, "freebie" trades already are not allowed and should be removed if they haven't already.

The point of the trading system is to show the reliability and trustworthiness of users here. So, we decided long ago that trades should be allowed if they have significant value and therefore show that trust and/or reliability. Freebie trades do not show that. SS trades are a weird mix, but we've allowed them because, in general, they do show trustworthiness, reliability, and usually have real value (i.e. "this user sent a $20 item to someone, so that should meet the requirements."

Just my 2c -- and memory as a Mod when we discussed this before. Freebie trades (or items of "low value" -- which is a bit hard to define exactly, but we used to say "less than a couple of bucks" as a guideline) are out, but other trades "of value" are usually in.

- John...
15-Jan-19 4:53pm
#16
Archer
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review

John wrote:
Porksta wrote:> This. Why not delete freebie or Secret Santa trades as well? To note it, "freebie" trades already are not allowed and should be removed if they haven't already. The point of the trading system is to show the reliability and trustworthiness of users here. So, we decided long ago that trades should be allowed if they have significant value and therefore show that trust and/or reliability. Freebie trades do not show that. SS trades are a weird mix, but we've allowed them because, in general, they do show trustworthiness, reliability, and usually have real value (i.e. "this user sent a $20 item to someone, so that should meet the requirements." Just my 2c -- and memory as a Mod when we discussed this before. Freebie trades (or items of "low value" -- which is a bit hard to define exactly, but we used to say "less than a couple of bucks" as a guideline) are out, but other trades "of value" are usually in. - John...
Incorrect. Freebie trades from the freebie forum have always been allowed. They only get deleted if someone abuses them.
15-Jan-19 5:05pm
#17
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa

I think we're talking about two different things then. Basically, trades have to have some significant value. So, if the "freebie" item was someone giving away a $10 item, then, yes, it can be reported. That would be similar to the Secret Santa thing -- where they are one-sided, but still significant and show trust.

I originally thought by "freebie" he meant people doing things like "User A trades a week of subtime to User B for a smile and some love." Those "freebie" things are not allowed -- they don't have significant value.
15-Jan-19 5:58pm
#18
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews

It's also worth noting that there are likely many pending loans trades, lots are likely old and overdue and basically unfiled BTRs.

OK, looking those up... https://gametz.com/?... keep paging and paging frown 100s of rip offs?

No worries, I won't delete loans. Hiding them is a possibility, though I really don't have any great way to do that either. So, I probably won't. This whole loan thing is a problem that can't really be fixed, just made a little better perhaps (or not made worse may be a better way to put it).
15-Jan-19 6:23pm
#19
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews

Not too many pages, but a little bit scary to see so many pending loans for one particularly active user.
15-Jan-19 7:08pm
#20
MrBean
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (7) Has Written 1 Review This user is on the site NOW (37 seconds ago)

Surprised to see some of those still in a pending state with their age! Probably safe to assume anything > 1 year old is definitely dead.

Regardless, it's your call @bill and we're behind ya. I am an active loaner here, it's been largely a pleasant and rewarding experience (only had one potential temporary BTR I filed, later removed), but I'll cease and desist.

How will I fund my meth habit now ... I do not know. When I end up dead on the side of the road, I'll make sure I'm wearing a shirt that said "Bill did this".

haha, all in good fun, hope this yields the positive results you're after!
16-Jan-19 1:10am
#21
ryanflucas
GameTZ Subscriber 1000 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader

yes

Banning Loans, baby steps