The Great Star War (Star Wars Discussion)
22-Jun-18 9:29pm
#1 theJaw
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
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I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
#1 theJaw
| This topic had many older posts which were moved here: http://gametz.com/Ge... |
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
image
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
14-Oct-19 2:09pm
#2 Scott
whitefire wrote:
Scott wrote:> Next up is III Just be careful of the child death scenes. It could totally upset them like it did poor Obi-Wan. https://m.youtube.co...
I was 20 when I saw III in theaters and that scene got me teary eyed, no lie.
#2 Scott
whitefire wrote:
Scott wrote:> Next up is III Just be careful of the child death scenes. It could totally upset them like it did poor Obi-Wan. https://m.youtube.co...
I was 20 when I saw III in theaters and that scene got me teary eyed, no lie.
14-Oct-19 2:17pm
#3 Grenadier
III was the first one to get a PG-13 rating. The sequels, Solo, and Rogue One then also got PG-13. Take that for what it's worth.
III has the youngling scene, but also the rather nasty burning scene (after 3 more limbs are lopped off), the surgical scene with Vader getting his prosthetics and armor, and the childbirth and subsequent death scene. Any or all of that could be a problem depending on how young/immature your kids are.
VII and VIII were not really as bad, except for the rather prominent deaths towards the end of each.
Rogue One is much more of a war movie. Ground forces feature much more prominently, so we get a lot more face to face combat, as opposed to space combat. I won't say more since you mentioned you haven't seen it.
#3 Grenadier
III was the first one to get a PG-13 rating. The sequels, Solo, and Rogue One then also got PG-13. Take that for what it's worth.
III has the youngling scene, but also the rather nasty burning scene (after 3 more limbs are lopped off), the surgical scene with Vader getting his prosthetics and armor, and the childbirth and subsequent death scene. Any or all of that could be a problem depending on how young/immature your kids are.
VII and VIII were not really as bad, except for the rather prominent deaths towards the end of each.
Rogue One is much more of a war movie. Ground forces feature much more prominently, so we get a lot more face to face combat, as opposed to space combat. I won't say more since you mentioned you haven't seen it.
14-Oct-19 2:37pm
#4 whitefire
Scott wrote:
whitefire wrote:> Scott wrote: |>> Next up is III> > Just be careful of the child death scenes. It could totally upset them like it did> poor Obi-Wan.> > https://m.youtube.co... I was 20 when I saw III in theaters and that scene got me teary eyed, no lie.
He's actually laughing in that scene. He couldn't get it right, so he held his hand over his mouth.
#4 whitefire
Scott wrote:
whitefire wrote:> Scott wrote: |>> Next up is III> > Just be careful of the child death scenes. It could totally upset them like it did> poor Obi-Wan.> > https://m.youtube.co... I was 20 when I saw III in theaters and that scene got me teary eyed, no lie.
He's actually laughing in that scene. He couldn't get it right, so he held his hand over his mouth.
14-Oct-19 2:41pm
#5 Scott
theJaw wrote:
@Scott Nice, and good job choosing the correct order to show kids. Some folks I know would opt to show the prequels first which ruins the classic “twist”. Did they already know it/see it coming?
Yeah I've never liked prequel first or machete order, I think IV-VI and then I-III is definitely the way to go. They didn't see the twist coming at all. They actually thought Vader was lying at first. When I told them he wasn't they both said "REALLY?!?"
Rogue One is a bit more mature what with the ending and it being primarily a movie revolving around the actual “war” aspect, but I think Solo stays within the normal “wacky” Star Wars boundaries - lots of colors and neat practical monsters and whatnot. There are a few questionable jokes regarding Lando’s pansexuality but I honestly don’t think kids would pick up on the context. If they pass the maturity-screen, I’d show those before the sequel trilogy solely because they’re still prequels.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about where to fit them in yet. That makes sense.
#5 Scott
theJaw wrote:
@Scott Nice, and good job choosing the correct order to show kids. Some folks I know would opt to show the prequels first which ruins the classic “twist”. Did they already know it/see it coming?
Yeah I've never liked prequel first or machete order, I think IV-VI and then I-III is definitely the way to go. They didn't see the twist coming at all. They actually thought Vader was lying at first. When I told them he wasn't they both said "REALLY?!?"
Rogue One is a bit more mature what with the ending and it being primarily a movie revolving around the actual “war” aspect, but I think Solo stays within the normal “wacky” Star Wars boundaries - lots of colors and neat practical monsters and whatnot. There are a few questionable jokes regarding Lando’s pansexuality but I honestly don’t think kids would pick up on the context. If they pass the maturity-screen, I’d show those before the sequel trilogy solely because they’re still prequels.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about where to fit them in yet. That makes sense.
14-Oct-19 2:41pm
#6 Scott
whitefire wrote:
He's actually laughing in that scene. He couldn't get it right, so he held his hand over his mouth.
lol, I was talking about the actual scene where Anakin kills the younglings.
#6 Scott
whitefire wrote:
He's actually laughing in that scene. He couldn't get it right, so he held his hand over his mouth.
lol, I was talking about the actual scene where Anakin kills the younglings.
14-Oct-19 2:50pm
#7 Scott
Grenadier wrote:
III was the first one to get a PG-13 rating. The sequels, Solo, and Rogue One then also got PG-13. Take that for what it's worth. III has the youngling scene, but also the rather nasty burning scene (after 3 more limbs are lopped off), the surgical scene with Vader getting his prosthetics and armor, and the childbirth and subsequent death scene. Any or all of that could be a problem depending on how young/immature your kids are. VII and VIII were not really as bad, except for the rather prominent deaths towards the end of each. Rogue One is much more of a war movie. Ground forces feature much more prominently, so we get a lot more face to face combat, as opposed to space combat. I won't say more since you mentioned you haven't seen it.
I didn't even think about all of that other stuff at the end of III. My only concern was the youngling scene. Thanks for all the info!
#7 Scott
Grenadier wrote:
III was the first one to get a PG-13 rating. The sequels, Solo, and Rogue One then also got PG-13. Take that for what it's worth. III has the youngling scene, but also the rather nasty burning scene (after 3 more limbs are lopped off), the surgical scene with Vader getting his prosthetics and armor, and the childbirth and subsequent death scene. Any or all of that could be a problem depending on how young/immature your kids are. VII and VIII were not really as bad, except for the rather prominent deaths towards the end of each. Rogue One is much more of a war movie. Ground forces feature much more prominently, so we get a lot more face to face combat, as opposed to space combat. I won't say more since you mentioned you haven't seen it.
I didn't even think about all of that other stuff at the end of III. My only concern was the youngling scene. Thanks for all the info!
14-Oct-19 2:56pm
#8 theJaw
@Scott your kids had the same reaction that lots of movie-goers did at the time of release then. There was apparently this big debate heading into Return of the Jedi over whether Darth Vader was lying or not. I can only imagine what the internet would have looked like with that cliffhanger lingering haha
#8 theJaw
@Scott your kids had the same reaction that lots of movie-goers did at the time of release then. There was apparently this big debate heading into Return of the Jedi over whether Darth Vader was lying or not. I can only imagine what the internet would have looked like with that cliffhanger lingering haha
21-Oct-19 11:59pm
#9 theJaw
In regards to the final Episode IX trailer: I loved it and it definitely got me pumped for the movie.
But what are the odds Abrams takes a swerve and doesn't have Kylo get the teased obligatory face-turn? It's no secret I dug The Last Jedi even if over time I realize there was plenty that could have been done better, but my favorite part was that it seemed to establish Kylo Ren as the main antagonist of the trilogy. I thought that it was a good "second chapter" on the road to him becoming the major other-worldly threat for Episode IX. To be honest, that just would have been nice and simple-enough character development. However the last couple shots from this new trailer definitely have me thinking Kylo will help Rey defeat Palpatine (and/or whoever else) in the end.
So is there any chance Abrams is just pulling a bait-and-switch with this trailer? He knows that after the different tone and direction of The Last Jedi, there will be a sector of fans expecting a "return to form" here, but I'd still like to see Kylo Ren end as more "bad" than "good", even if circumstances cause another team-up with Rey. By the looks of it, we're going to get that huge "Return of the Jedi" style movie here either way, but I think it'd be interesting to not have Kylo Ren pull a full-Anakin.
Will judge the events of the movie on their own merit when I see it though, if they do the face-turn and I enjoy the way it's pulled off then I have no reason to complain. I'm just interested to see where they take that character especially.
#9 theJaw
In regards to the final Episode IX trailer: I loved it and it definitely got me pumped for the movie.
But what are the odds Abrams takes a swerve and doesn't have Kylo get the teased obligatory face-turn? It's no secret I dug The Last Jedi even if over time I realize there was plenty that could have been done better, but my favorite part was that it seemed to establish Kylo Ren as the main antagonist of the trilogy. I thought that it was a good "second chapter" on the road to him becoming the major other-worldly threat for Episode IX. To be honest, that just would have been nice and simple-enough character development. However the last couple shots from this new trailer definitely have me thinking Kylo will help Rey defeat Palpatine (and/or whoever else) in the end.
So is there any chance Abrams is just pulling a bait-and-switch with this trailer? He knows that after the different tone and direction of The Last Jedi, there will be a sector of fans expecting a "return to form" here, but I'd still like to see Kylo Ren end as more "bad" than "good", even if circumstances cause another team-up with Rey. By the looks of it, we're going to get that huge "Return of the Jedi" style movie here either way, but I think it'd be interesting to not have Kylo Ren pull a full-Anakin.
Will judge the events of the movie on their own merit when I see it though, if they do the face-turn and I enjoy the way it's pulled off then I have no reason to complain. I'm just interested to see where they take that character especially.
22-Oct-19 12:30am
#10 whitefire
I don't see why he would pull a bait and switch. He had at least 18 months (minimum) to make adjustments to Skywalker. There's no way he and Disney wouldn't have switched things up after how poorly TLJ was received by fans. I think what we get we'll be even better than what we see.
#10 whitefire
I don't see why he would pull a bait and switch. He had at least 18 months (minimum) to make adjustments to Skywalker. There's no way he and Disney wouldn't have switched things up after how poorly TLJ was received by fans. I think what we get we'll be even better than what we see.
22-Oct-19 8:36am
#11 klusion
Did anyone get tickets last night? Got some for the 6pm showing Friday, December 20th.
#11 klusion
Did anyone get tickets last night? Got some for the 6pm showing Friday, December 20th.
22-Oct-19 8:39am
#12 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
I don't see why he would pull a bait and switch. He had at least 18 months (minimum) to make adjustments to Skywalker. There's no way he and Disney wouldn't have switched things up after how poorly TLJ was received by fans. I think what we get we'll be even better than what we see.
How poorly TLJ was received by some fans. Still seems to me that the majority of fans and casual movie-goers (not all) were either fine with TLJ or simply indifferent all together. Just an extremely vocal sect of Star Wars fans who thought it was actually offensive and let the internet know, but the only audience aggregate website that reflects that hardcore disapproval was Rotten Tomatoes (which was openly and admittedly review-bombed by trolls). In my opinion, Lucasfilm really didn't need to do anything based off the gut reaction from some to TLJ, they could have had the stones to continue in a less obvious direction. I just figured Abrams (the guy himself) would opt to return the series to the cookie-cutter form. Which is what it seems he has done, for better or worse.
Anyhow, I'm not talking about adjusting anything during production. I just mean that this final trailer itself could be a bait-and-switch, as it overtly made it seem like Kylo Ren was primed for the ROTJ-Vader redemption arc. The "I do" bit and the bit where it seems Kylo and Rey are working together to destroy Vader's helmet(?) seemed to tease it. And then the bit where we see him walk toward something off-camera leading to the Palpatine(?)/Rey shot is super reminiscent of Vader walking off-camera to help Luke in ROTJ. So I'm wondering if the trailer itself is misleading us to expect something more "obviously Star Wars" and whether or not JJ Abrams would pull the trigger on keeping Kylo Ren the "bad guy". I highly doubt it, but I think it'd be a cool change up from the norm.
#12 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
I don't see why he would pull a bait and switch. He had at least 18 months (minimum) to make adjustments to Skywalker. There's no way he and Disney wouldn't have switched things up after how poorly TLJ was received by fans. I think what we get we'll be even better than what we see.
How poorly TLJ was received by some fans. Still seems to me that the majority of fans and casual movie-goers (not all) were either fine with TLJ or simply indifferent all together. Just an extremely vocal sect of Star Wars fans who thought it was actually offensive and let the internet know, but the only audience aggregate website that reflects that hardcore disapproval was Rotten Tomatoes (which was openly and admittedly review-bombed by trolls). In my opinion, Lucasfilm really didn't need to do anything based off the gut reaction from some to TLJ, they could have had the stones to continue in a less obvious direction. I just figured Abrams (the guy himself) would opt to return the series to the cookie-cutter form. Which is what it seems he has done, for better or worse.
Anyhow, I'm not talking about adjusting anything during production. I just mean that this final trailer itself could be a bait-and-switch, as it overtly made it seem like Kylo Ren was primed for the ROTJ-Vader redemption arc. The "I do" bit and the bit where it seems Kylo and Rey are working together to destroy Vader's helmet(?) seemed to tease it. And then the bit where we see him walk toward something off-camera leading to the Palpatine(?)/Rey shot is super reminiscent of Vader walking off-camera to help Luke in ROTJ. So I'm wondering if the trailer itself is misleading us to expect something more "obviously Star Wars" and whether or not JJ Abrams would pull the trigger on keeping Kylo Ren the "bad guy". I highly doubt it, but I think it'd be a cool change up from the norm.
22-Oct-19 8:43am
#13 theJaw
klusion wrote:
Did anyone get tickets last night? Got some for the 6pm showing Friday, December 20th.
Packed theaters on opening weekend always geek me out a bit so I'll probably just wait until that following week to see it. I don't expect to have to buy tickets beforehand in that case. Usually the movie only sells out for the first few days anyhow.
Just gonna dread the internet for those few days. If this movie gets spoiled for me, I'll be bummed.
#13 theJaw
klusion wrote:
Did anyone get tickets last night? Got some for the 6pm showing Friday, December 20th.
Packed theaters on opening weekend always geek me out a bit so I'll probably just wait until that following week to see it. I don't expect to have to buy tickets beforehand in that case. Usually the movie only sells out for the first few days anyhow.
Just gonna dread the internet for those few days. If this movie gets spoiled for me, I'll be bummed.
22-Oct-19 8:45am
#14 whitefire
Many fans (less than 50# audience RT rating, 7.1 IMDB score, 4.4 user score on metacritic) took major issue with it. I liked it, but the vast, vast majority of fans thought it had issues and was a step down. I think they're taking the franchise more seriously now after TLJ and Solo. I think they got lazy and also rushed a bit in a lot of spots thinking that, due to the success of the first two films, they could just phone it in and put out half-assed films. They found out otherwise, and while there was still a lot of money made overall, a company like Disney looks at the big picture.
#14 whitefire
Many fans (less than 50# audience RT rating, 7.1 IMDB score, 4.4 user score on metacritic) took major issue with it. I liked it, but the vast, vast majority of fans thought it had issues and was a step down. I think they're taking the franchise more seriously now after TLJ and Solo. I think they got lazy and also rushed a bit in a lot of spots thinking that, due to the success of the first two films, they could just phone it in and put out half-assed films. They found out otherwise, and while there was still a lot of money made overall, a company like Disney looks at the big picture.
22-Oct-19 8:46am
#15 theJaw
Also going back to my Kylo Ren hopes, I'm not gonna pretend like him redeeming himself and pulling a ROTJ-Vader would be the worst thing ever. As a Star Wars fan, I'm going to love seeing him "go good" in some triumphant, overtly Star Wars moment. I'd just also love the opposite. Neither outcome would detriment my opinion unless the writing and execution were poor.
#15 theJaw
Also going back to my Kylo Ren hopes, I'm not gonna pretend like him redeeming himself and pulling a ROTJ-Vader would be the worst thing ever. As a Star Wars fan, I'm going to love seeing him "go good" in some triumphant, overtly Star Wars moment. I'd just also love the opposite. Neither outcome would detriment my opinion unless the writing and execution were poor.
22-Oct-19 8:52am
#16 whitefire
I have no problem with Kylo Ren anyway way they go with him, as long as they tone down the brooding and whining. It was the worst thing about Anakin too.
#16 whitefire
I have no problem with Kylo Ren anyway way they go with him, as long as they tone down the brooding and whining. It was the worst thing about Anakin too.
22-Oct-19 8:55am
#17 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
Many fans (less than 50# audience RT rating) took major issue with it. I liked it, but the vast, vast majority of fans thought it had issues and was a step down.
Again, the RT audience rating was openly review-bombed by troll accounts, even Metacritic got lambasted a bit. More than one group has claimed credit for it. TLJ got 7.1 on IMDB and CinemaScore, who polls audiences immediately after seeing the movie, gave it an "A". It's no coincidence that the websites with less opportunity to register fake accounts have TLJ ranked higher than the others.
It's fine if you had issues with it, even folks like me who enjoyed the movie have things they dislike about it, but the "vast, vast majority" didn't find it offensively bad in the way the RT user score was manipulated to reflect.
I think they're taking the franchise more seriously now after TLJ and Solo. I think they got lazy and also rushed a bit in a lot of spots thinking that, due to the success of the first two films, they could just phone it in and put out half-assed films. They found out otherwise, and while there was still a lot of money made overall, a company like Disney looks at the big picture.
If anything, Solo's poor marketing and silly release date got Disney re-thinking plans for the side story films. TLJ did well enough financially that they would have no reason to "rethink" anything just because of a RT user score. Look at all their current live-action remakes. They get crap from both sides of the RT field, critics and audiences, but they make a crapload of money, so Disney keeps pumping them out. If one of their franchises is making money, a company like Disney doesn't care if audiences dislike the product. Billions of dollars are their "big picture", not pleasing each and every person who sees a movie.
#17 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
Many fans (less than 50# audience RT rating) took major issue with it. I liked it, but the vast, vast majority of fans thought it had issues and was a step down.
Again, the RT audience rating was openly review-bombed by troll accounts, even Metacritic got lambasted a bit. More than one group has claimed credit for it. TLJ got 7.1 on IMDB and CinemaScore, who polls audiences immediately after seeing the movie, gave it an "A". It's no coincidence that the websites with less opportunity to register fake accounts have TLJ ranked higher than the others.
It's fine if you had issues with it, even folks like me who enjoyed the movie have things they dislike about it, but the "vast, vast majority" didn't find it offensively bad in the way the RT user score was manipulated to reflect.
I think they're taking the franchise more seriously now after TLJ and Solo. I think they got lazy and also rushed a bit in a lot of spots thinking that, due to the success of the first two films, they could just phone it in and put out half-assed films. They found out otherwise, and while there was still a lot of money made overall, a company like Disney looks at the big picture.
If anything, Solo's poor marketing and silly release date got Disney re-thinking plans for the side story films. TLJ did well enough financially that they would have no reason to "rethink" anything just because of a RT user score. Look at all their current live-action remakes. They get crap from both sides of the RT field, critics and audiences, but they make a crapload of money, so Disney keeps pumping them out. If one of their franchises is making money, a company like Disney doesn't care if audiences dislike the product. Billions of dollars are their "big picture", not pleasing each and every person who sees a movie.
22-Oct-19 9:00am
#18 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
I have no problem with Kylo Ren anyway way they go with him, as long as they tone down the brooding and whining. It was the worst thing about Anakin too.
Anakin's angsty dialogue was so over-the-top and Lucas did a poor job directing the actor, resulting in what we got from that character. Kylo Ren definitely was a bit whiny in The Force Awakens, but I liked him a lot more in The Last Jedi. He started out unsure still, but after the Snoke deal, seemed a lot more confident. It wasn't until he saw Luke that he started ramping up that angst again, but even then I feel like it played more as unhinged anger as opposed to Attack of the Clones-style Anakin whining.
But yah, either way as far as "light side or dark side" would be fine if it's pulled off well. I'm just looking forward to seeing what actually happens.
#18 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
I have no problem with Kylo Ren anyway way they go with him, as long as they tone down the brooding and whining. It was the worst thing about Anakin too.
Anakin's angsty dialogue was so over-the-top and Lucas did a poor job directing the actor, resulting in what we got from that character. Kylo Ren definitely was a bit whiny in The Force Awakens, but I liked him a lot more in The Last Jedi. He started out unsure still, but after the Snoke deal, seemed a lot more confident. It wasn't until he saw Luke that he started ramping up that angst again, but even then I feel like it played more as unhinged anger as opposed to Attack of the Clones-style Anakin whining.
But yah, either way as far as "light side or dark side" would be fine if it's pulled off well. I'm just looking forward to seeing what actually happens.
22-Oct-19 9:06am
#19 theJaw
@whitefire have you ever dabbled with fan edits? I’d be interested what you think of a TLJ edit I watched the other day. I think it’s a huge improvement to the original cut, removing lots of the cringey humor and reducing Canto Bight down to what’s necessary.
#19 theJaw
@whitefire have you ever dabbled with fan edits? I’d be interested what you think of a TLJ edit I watched the other day. I think it’s a huge improvement to the original cut, removing lots of the cringey humor and reducing Canto Bight down to what’s necessary.
22-Oct-19 9:18am
#20 Scott
I'm a sucker for happy endings and redemption stories, so even though it's cliche and has already been done in Star Wars, I'd still like to see Kylo turn good in this film. Let Palpatine be the overall bad guy of all 3 trilogies, and Kylo and Rey can take him down together, for good.
#20 Scott
I'm a sucker for happy endings and redemption stories, so even though it's cliche and has already been done in Star Wars, I'd still like to see Kylo turn good in this film. Let Palpatine be the overall bad guy of all 3 trilogies, and Kylo and Rey can take him down together, for good.
22-Oct-19 9:25am
#21 theJaw
For sure, if that happens it could still be a great ending. I thought I’d hate reviving an OT villain like Vader or Palpatine but using ol’ Sheev as the throughline connecting all 3 trilogies is pretty neat. And it works better as a reveal for this last chapter than it would have if they just had him hanging around in the last 2 movies.
#21 theJaw
For sure, if that happens it could still be a great ending. I thought I’d hate reviving an OT villain like Vader or Palpatine but using ol’ Sheev as the throughline connecting all 3 trilogies is pretty neat. And it works better as a reveal for this last chapter than it would have if they just had him hanging around in the last 2 movies.
The Great Star War (Star Wars Discussion)