The Great Star War (Star Wars Discussion)
22-Jun-18 9:29pm
#1 theJaw
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
image
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
#1 theJaw
| This topic had many older posts which were moved here: http://gametz.com/Ge... |
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
image
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
22-Oct-19 9:25am
#21 theJaw
For sure, if that happens it could still be a great ending. I thought I’d hate reviving an OT villain like Vader or Palpatine but using ol’ Sheev as the throughline connecting all 3 trilogies is pretty neat. And it works better as a reveal for this last chapter than it would have if they just had him hanging around in the last 2 movies.
#21 theJaw
For sure, if that happens it could still be a great ending. I thought I’d hate reviving an OT villain like Vader or Palpatine but using ol’ Sheev as the throughline connecting all 3 trilogies is pretty neat. And it works better as a reveal for this last chapter than it would have if they just had him hanging around in the last 2 movies.
22-Oct-19 9:43am
#22 whitefire
theJaw wrote:
@whitefire have you ever dabbled with fan edits? I’d be interested what you think of a TLJ edit I watched the other day. I think it’s a huge improvement to the original cut, removing lots of the cringey humor and reducing Canto Bight down to what’s necessary.
I'm not sure about the legality of fan edits.
#22 whitefire
theJaw wrote:
@whitefire have you ever dabbled with fan edits? I’d be interested what you think of a TLJ edit I watched the other day. I think it’s a huge improvement to the original cut, removing lots of the cringey humor and reducing Canto Bight down to what’s necessary.
I'm not sure about the legality of fan edits.
22-Oct-19 10:12am
#23 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
I'm not sure about the legality of fan edits.
I'd say it's more of a morality issue, even though it is a legal one technically speaking. No film studio would bother going after a fan-editor for sending edits out to select folks. They could, but it wouldn't be worth their time or resources. Technically not legal, but fan edits have never impacted any film studio in any way that would call for legal action, so it's a little silly. Morally speaking, I've spent quite a bit of money on Star Wars and similar franchises, and will continue to do so, so I don't feel like I'm taking money out of anybody's pockets at this point. I don't see editing a movie and showing folks that edit for free, especially if those folks own a copy of the original, as being morally wrong. The law may technically frown upon it but certain laws can be pointless and in need of revision from time-to-time.
Either way, a better cut of TLJ exists and I'm happy I got to see it. It will probably be my go-to version. It addresses a lot of the problems I had with the OG cut:
-Poe's "mother" joke is gone. In this version it cuts from Hux listening to Poe call him a "tall, pasty guy" straight to Hux ordering the ship to open fire. No more "tooling" line, etc.
-A Finn/Poe deleted scene, where Finn tells Poe that he never considered himself a part of the Resistance, is reinstated. This scene is necessary as it establishes the starting point for Finn's arc, where he eventually learns to be more like Rose and less like DJ by finally choosing a "side". Without this scene, it's understandable how Finn's arc could be missed by people.
-Luke's lightsaber toss is scored differently. In the OG cut, the music swells to a stop, and then Luke tosses the saber back as a sight gag, played for laughs. In this edit, the swell comes as Luke is walking away, having already thrown the saber. It comes off as less of an "antic" and more of a defiant statement.
-I didn't mind the Leia-in-space bit, but they edit this version as the TIE fighters blowing out the side of the ship, and then the explosion's light takes the entire frame over as Leia feels the impact. It then cuts pretty artful to a shot of the ship's exterior and the battle. Next time we see Leia is when she's being carted off on the stretcher.
-Casino scene is trimmed to solely deal with the search for a codebreaker. No more slave kids or cat-horses.
-The editor frames the meeting scene between Finn/Rose and DJ with the former following the latter out of the cell, insinuating that they decide to join him right away (as opposed to after he and BB-8 save them from the chase scene). After Finn and Rose leave the cell, the next time we see them is already on-board the ship in hyperspeed.
-No more BB-8 in the walker.
There are some other fixes that I could have taken either way. The Rose/Finn "suicide save" at the end is gone. The one thing I really would have liked them to keep that they edited out was Finn vs. Phasma. It was fairly pointless but I still thought it added a bit to the movie.
#23 theJaw
whitefire wrote:
I'm not sure about the legality of fan edits.
I'd say it's more of a morality issue, even though it is a legal one technically speaking. No film studio would bother going after a fan-editor for sending edits out to select folks. They could, but it wouldn't be worth their time or resources. Technically not legal, but fan edits have never impacted any film studio in any way that would call for legal action, so it's a little silly. Morally speaking, I've spent quite a bit of money on Star Wars and similar franchises, and will continue to do so, so I don't feel like I'm taking money out of anybody's pockets at this point. I don't see editing a movie and showing folks that edit for free, especially if those folks own a copy of the original, as being morally wrong. The law may technically frown upon it but certain laws can be pointless and in need of revision from time-to-time.
Either way, a better cut of TLJ exists and I'm happy I got to see it. It will probably be my go-to version. It addresses a lot of the problems I had with the OG cut:
-Poe's "mother" joke is gone. In this version it cuts from Hux listening to Poe call him a "tall, pasty guy" straight to Hux ordering the ship to open fire. No more "tooling" line, etc.
-A Finn/Poe deleted scene, where Finn tells Poe that he never considered himself a part of the Resistance, is reinstated. This scene is necessary as it establishes the starting point for Finn's arc, where he eventually learns to be more like Rose and less like DJ by finally choosing a "side". Without this scene, it's understandable how Finn's arc could be missed by people.
-Luke's lightsaber toss is scored differently. In the OG cut, the music swells to a stop, and then Luke tosses the saber back as a sight gag, played for laughs. In this edit, the swell comes as Luke is walking away, having already thrown the saber. It comes off as less of an "antic" and more of a defiant statement.
-I didn't mind the Leia-in-space bit, but they edit this version as the TIE fighters blowing out the side of the ship, and then the explosion's light takes the entire frame over as Leia feels the impact. It then cuts pretty artful to a shot of the ship's exterior and the battle. Next time we see Leia is when she's being carted off on the stretcher.
-Casino scene is trimmed to solely deal with the search for a codebreaker. No more slave kids or cat-horses.
-The editor frames the meeting scene between Finn/Rose and DJ with the former following the latter out of the cell, insinuating that they decide to join him right away (as opposed to after he and BB-8 save them from the chase scene). After Finn and Rose leave the cell, the next time we see them is already on-board the ship in hyperspeed.
-No more BB-8 in the walker.
There are some other fixes that I could have taken either way. The Rose/Finn "suicide save" at the end is gone. The one thing I really would have liked them to keep that they edited out was Finn vs. Phasma. It was fairly pointless but I still thought it added a bit to the movie.
22-Oct-19 10:21am
#24 theJaw
Interesting comments from Adam Driver: https://screenrant.c...
In his opinion, Kylo Ren is the "son of two religious zealots", referring to Han Solo and Leia. He looks at Kylo Ren as having been committed to a religion and belief system above all else, including family. That's sort of true, considering Leia has sent him away to train with Luke and all. Obviously Leia wanted him to learn to harness his powers so he wouldn't be a threat to himself or anyone, but you can sort of see where Driver is coming from as far as Kylo Ren's POV goes. It makes his desire to "kill the past" a lot more poignant.
#24 theJaw
Interesting comments from Adam Driver: https://screenrant.c...
In his opinion, Kylo Ren is the "son of two religious zealots", referring to Han Solo and Leia. He looks at Kylo Ren as having been committed to a religion and belief system above all else, including family. That's sort of true, considering Leia has sent him away to train with Luke and all. Obviously Leia wanted him to learn to harness his powers so he wouldn't be a threat to himself or anyone, but you can sort of see where Driver is coming from as far as Kylo Ren's POV goes. It makes his desire to "kill the past" a lot more poignant.
22-Oct-19 10:35am
#25 klusion
theJaw wrote:
klusion wrote:> Did anyone get tickets last night? Got some for the 6pm showing Friday, December> 20th.> > Packed theaters on opening weekend always geek me out a bit so I'll probably just wait until that following week to see it. I don't expect to have to buy tickets beforehand in that case. Usually the movie only sells out for the first few days anyhow. Just gonna dread the internet for those few days. If this movie gets spoiled for me, I'll be bummed.
Just remember it's going to be Christmas the following week, so the traffic won't be much better.
#25 klusion
theJaw wrote:
klusion wrote:> Did anyone get tickets last night? Got some for the 6pm showing Friday, December> 20th.> > Packed theaters on opening weekend always geek me out a bit so I'll probably just wait until that following week to see it. I don't expect to have to buy tickets beforehand in that case. Usually the movie only sells out for the first few days anyhow. Just gonna dread the internet for those few days. If this movie gets spoiled for me, I'll be bummed.
Just remember it's going to be Christmas the following week, so the traffic won't be much better.
22-Oct-19 11:11am
#26 whitefire
I got tickets for the Thursday 6PM and the Saturday night (Dolby Atmos) as well. A lot of people I know are not willing to go to opening nights, so I guess by myself.
#26 whitefire
I got tickets for the Thursday 6PM and the Saturday night (Dolby Atmos) as well. A lot of people I know are not willing to go to opening nights, so I guess by myself.
8-Nov-19 1:29am
#27 theJaw
Great piece written by Billie Lourd about her mother, Carrie Fisher, and her “stepmom” Princess Leia:
https://time.com/572...
Gets me really excited to see her one last time in Episode IX.
#27 theJaw
Great piece written by Billie Lourd about her mother, Carrie Fisher, and her “stepmom” Princess Leia:
https://time.com/572...
Gets me really excited to see her one last time in Episode IX.
23-Dec-19 6:19pm
#28 theJaw
DrizzDrizzDrizz wrote:
Looking forward to non-SW content in here
First "I'm sick of Star Wars" post of the season, fellas. Let's try to keep the major SW discussion to the ol' STAR WAR.
#28 theJaw
DrizzDrizzDrizz wrote:
Looking forward to non-SW content in here
First "I'm sick of Star Wars" post of the season, fellas. Let's try to keep the major SW discussion to the ol' STAR WAR.
23-Dec-19 6:30pm
#29 Grenadier
OK, so this occurred to me the next day....
So, Palpatine has been back from the dead for quite a while, controlling things from afar. (I'm expecting a comic or novel to explain this eventually.) Snoke was always his meat puppet, which means he's been back at least as long as Snoke has been around.
He knows he has a fleet of star destroyers with Death Star-class lasers on them, right?
So, why on earth would he waste time and resources building Starkiller Base?
I know the real reason is that they hadn't written 9 when they wrote 7, but it retrospect, it makes no sense,
BTW, are we using spoiler tags in here, or is the whole thread one big spoiler?
#29 Grenadier
OK, so this occurred to me the next day....
So, Palpatine has been back from the dead for quite a while, controlling things from afar. (I'm expecting a comic or novel to explain this eventually.) Snoke was always his meat puppet, which means he's been back at least as long as Snoke has been around.
He knows he has a fleet of star destroyers with Death Star-class lasers on them, right?
So, why on earth would he waste time and resources building Starkiller Base?
I know the real reason is that they hadn't written 9 when they wrote 7, but it retrospect, it makes no sense,
BTW, are we using spoiler tags in here, or is the whole thread one big spoiler?
23-Dec-19 7:17pm
#31 theJaw
I, too, vote open spoilers.
@Grenadier there are lots of things that don't mesh between Episodes VII/VIII and IX. Like how both TFA and TLJ hint toward Kylo Ren as clearly having some sort of history with Rey before the events of TFA somehow, only to find out in Episode IX that he didn't know her origins and thus, had no history with her. Couple threads were lost from VII/VIII to IX unfortunately.
I guess in Starkiller Base's case, you can explain it away and make the argument that Palpatine's hidden fleet just wasn't ready yet. Maybe it got all finished up in the year between VIII and IX, and that's why Palpatine finally decided to transmit his warning of revenge across the galaxy. Perhaps Kylo Ren and the First Order created the Starkiller Base solely to diminish the strength of the Republic and any other enemies Palpatine had before he made his final huge attack.
Of course none of that was explained so you sort of just have to assume it... which seems to be an ongoing theme when trying to link certain threads to Episode IX.
#31 theJaw
I, too, vote open spoilers.
@Grenadier there are lots of things that don't mesh between Episodes VII/VIII and IX. Like how both TFA and TLJ hint toward Kylo Ren as clearly having some sort of history with Rey before the events of TFA somehow, only to find out in Episode IX that he didn't know her origins and thus, had no history with her. Couple threads were lost from VII/VIII to IX unfortunately.
I guess in Starkiller Base's case, you can explain it away and make the argument that Palpatine's hidden fleet just wasn't ready yet. Maybe it got all finished up in the year between VIII and IX, and that's why Palpatine finally decided to transmit his warning of revenge across the galaxy. Perhaps Kylo Ren and the First Order created the Starkiller Base solely to diminish the strength of the Republic and any other enemies Palpatine had before he made his final huge attack.
Of course none of that was explained so you sort of just have to assume it... which seems to be an ongoing theme when trying to link certain threads to Episode IX.
23-Dec-19 7:55pm
#32 theJaw
ENIX wrote:
That said, I feel like TRoS could severely benefit from some fanediting though. There's just too much going on especially in the beginning. I feel like if someone could re-pace this, it would be stellar.
Replying here so no one gets upset about SW talk in the score thread. But I agree with this too.
In fact I'd like to see an editor take the whole trilogy and fan edit it, taking the opening to TROS and placing it into the end of TLJ, so that Palpatine's first appearance is the stinger for TLJ.
I feel like removing some dialogue and a shot or two from the start of TROS could possibly suggest Kylo Ren wasn't 100% in the dark about Palpatine being around. It'd maybe come off as Kylo Ren failing to turn Rey in TLJ, and then reporting directly to Palpatine since "Snoke" was now "dead".
#32 theJaw
ENIX wrote:
That said, I feel like TRoS could severely benefit from some fanediting though. There's just too much going on especially in the beginning. I feel like if someone could re-pace this, it would be stellar.
Replying here so no one gets upset about SW talk in the score thread. But I agree with this too.
In fact I'd like to see an editor take the whole trilogy and fan edit it, taking the opening to TROS and placing it into the end of TLJ, so that Palpatine's first appearance is the stinger for TLJ.
I feel like removing some dialogue and a shot or two from the start of TROS could possibly suggest Kylo Ren wasn't 100% in the dark about Palpatine being around. It'd maybe come off as Kylo Ren failing to turn Rey in TLJ, and then reporting directly to Palpatine since "Snoke" was now "dead".
23-Dec-19 8:08pm
#33 Grenadier
Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental connection they shared in 8 make more sense.
The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project.
If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion?
The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise, and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the fleet was ready.
#33 Grenadier
Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental connection they shared in 8 make more sense.
The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project.
If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion?
The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise, and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the fleet was ready.
23-Dec-19 9:21pm
#34 theJaw
Grenadier wrote:
Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental connection they shared in 8 make more sense.
Both Episodes VII and VIII hint that Kylo Ren knew of Rey before TFA.
There's a scene in VII where Kylo Ren is told that "a girl" helped Finn and Poe escape. The direction gets very intense - Kylo whips around, pulls his lackey toward him, and forcefully asks "What girl!?" That line is the stinger for the scene as it transitions to the next immediately after, suggesting there's some importance to the moment. This 100% hints that Kylo Ren has knowledge of Rey, or at least a "girl" who could pose a threat to him. And this is the very first time the idea of Rey/a "girl" is brought up to Kylo Ren or anyone in the First Order... so he had no opportunity to become "fascinated" with her or to "crush" on her before reacting so oddly to the news of a girl aiding his enemies.
Some will try to explain that instance away by saying Snoke filled him in about Rey (considering Snoke was eventually revealed to be Palpatine), but an hour or so after that scene, Snoke tells Kylo Ren "If what you tell me about the girl is true, bring her to me." Snoke was clearly written in Episode VII as his own character, and clearly had no previous knowledge of Rey.
This idea is supported by the fact that Kylo Ren seemingly knows more about her in TLJ. Whenever they have their Force-link interactions, his confidence suggests he knows more about her than he's letting on. After the Throne Room battle, he straight up reveals her origins to her. This movie takes place immediately after TFA, so he had no time to research this information or get told about it. So then... how? He had to have had some knowledge of her before TFA/TLJ or else none of this makes sense to begin with. I think it's clear Johnson picked up on the same hint I picked up on from TFA and built off that, because the hint in TFA is pretty blatant.
Obviously those two movies were written before Episode IX. Palpatine tells Kylo Ren that she's "more" than he thinks... suggesting that Kylo Ren still at least somehow knew of Rey's origins before having met Palpatine. This creates a bit of a plot hole because he definitely knew her parents were "nobodies" without knowing the story of Palpatine's involvement.
There is easily enough to suggest that he was aware of Rey before the events of TFA and Episode IX drops that idea in favor of tying Rey to Palpatine.
The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project.
I didn't say Starkiller Base (or the fleet) was made in just a year, I suggested that it's possible Palpatine's fleet was only completed in the year between VIII and IX, which would explain why they used the Starkiller Base as a headstart. The Starkiller Base easily could have been a decade-long project, and with the technology advances, it's not too large of a stretch. Palpatine/Snoke could have had Hux/the First Order begin construction of Starkiller Base well after the fleet began getting assembled for the reason I'm about to explain below.
If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion?
The Starkiller Base project acting as a front would make enough sense. Palpatine could have created the First Order simultaneous to the "Final Order" so that they had a WMD capable of taking out all the planets of the Republic at once (which they did). That would ultimately strengthen Palpatine's chances of a complete takeover when he eventually decided to come out of hiding, and when his fleet was complete (which according to my theory would have been between Episodes VIII and IX). If they needed extra time to complete the fleet, it'd make sense to get a head start on removing some of Palpatine's obstacles before he unleashed his primary plan.
Nobody knew Palpatine was still alive - he and his fleet and all his weird followers were hidden from the rest of the galaxy. So unveiling a WMD wouldn't have "tipped" his hand regardless. Nobody knew he was still around and thus nobody would have been lead to believe he was behind it, or had other larger plans.
But again, that’s all just hypothetical if you want to read into it. It should have been presented in the movie so that IX made a bit more sense.
The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise, and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the fleet was ready.
He didn't broadcast anything before his fleet was complete. He transmitted his message of revenge, and then Kylo Ren immediately sought him out. As soon as Kylo Ren finds him, he unveils his fleet. It's not like they just finished it the second Kylo Ren got there... they were clearly ready to go before he showed up. Remember, Palpatine was hidden unless you had one of the two Sith wayfinders, so he likely hedged his bets on Kylo Ren tracking him down before the Resistance could figure it out considering Kylo Ren knew where one of the wayfinders were as is apparent from the opening scene of TROS.
The fleet was airborn and ready before that final battle happened. They rise at the beginning of the movie and then attack the Resistance the second they show up. Palpatine and the fleet weren't caught off guard at all by any of this. It seemed his plan worked without a hitch until the final "battle" between he and Rey.
#34 theJaw
Grenadier wrote:
Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental connection they shared in 8 make more sense.
Both Episodes VII and VIII hint that Kylo Ren knew of Rey before TFA.
There's a scene in VII where Kylo Ren is told that "a girl" helped Finn and Poe escape. The direction gets very intense - Kylo whips around, pulls his lackey toward him, and forcefully asks "What girl!?" That line is the stinger for the scene as it transitions to the next immediately after, suggesting there's some importance to the moment. This 100% hints that Kylo Ren has knowledge of Rey, or at least a "girl" who could pose a threat to him. And this is the very first time the idea of Rey/a "girl" is brought up to Kylo Ren or anyone in the First Order... so he had no opportunity to become "fascinated" with her or to "crush" on her before reacting so oddly to the news of a girl aiding his enemies.
Some will try to explain that instance away by saying Snoke filled him in about Rey (considering Snoke was eventually revealed to be Palpatine), but an hour or so after that scene, Snoke tells Kylo Ren "If what you tell me about the girl is true, bring her to me." Snoke was clearly written in Episode VII as his own character, and clearly had no previous knowledge of Rey.
This idea is supported by the fact that Kylo Ren seemingly knows more about her in TLJ. Whenever they have their Force-link interactions, his confidence suggests he knows more about her than he's letting on. After the Throne Room battle, he straight up reveals her origins to her. This movie takes place immediately after TFA, so he had no time to research this information or get told about it. So then... how? He had to have had some knowledge of her before TFA/TLJ or else none of this makes sense to begin with. I think it's clear Johnson picked up on the same hint I picked up on from TFA and built off that, because the hint in TFA is pretty blatant.
Obviously those two movies were written before Episode IX. Palpatine tells Kylo Ren that she's "more" than he thinks... suggesting that Kylo Ren still at least somehow knew of Rey's origins before having met Palpatine. This creates a bit of a plot hole because he definitely knew her parents were "nobodies" without knowing the story of Palpatine's involvement.
There is easily enough to suggest that he was aware of Rey before the events of TFA and Episode IX drops that idea in favor of tying Rey to Palpatine.
The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project.
I didn't say Starkiller Base (or the fleet) was made in just a year, I suggested that it's possible Palpatine's fleet was only completed in the year between VIII and IX, which would explain why they used the Starkiller Base as a headstart. The Starkiller Base easily could have been a decade-long project, and with the technology advances, it's not too large of a stretch. Palpatine/Snoke could have had Hux/the First Order begin construction of Starkiller Base well after the fleet began getting assembled for the reason I'm about to explain below.
If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion?
The Starkiller Base project acting as a front would make enough sense. Palpatine could have created the First Order simultaneous to the "Final Order" so that they had a WMD capable of taking out all the planets of the Republic at once (which they did). That would ultimately strengthen Palpatine's chances of a complete takeover when he eventually decided to come out of hiding, and when his fleet was complete (which according to my theory would have been between Episodes VIII and IX). If they needed extra time to complete the fleet, it'd make sense to get a head start on removing some of Palpatine's obstacles before he unleashed his primary plan.
Nobody knew Palpatine was still alive - he and his fleet and all his weird followers were hidden from the rest of the galaxy. So unveiling a WMD wouldn't have "tipped" his hand regardless. Nobody knew he was still around and thus nobody would have been lead to believe he was behind it, or had other larger plans.
But again, that’s all just hypothetical if you want to read into it. It should have been presented in the movie so that IX made a bit more sense.
The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise, and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the fleet was ready.
He didn't broadcast anything before his fleet was complete. He transmitted his message of revenge, and then Kylo Ren immediately sought him out. As soon as Kylo Ren finds him, he unveils his fleet. It's not like they just finished it the second Kylo Ren got there... they were clearly ready to go before he showed up. Remember, Palpatine was hidden unless you had one of the two Sith wayfinders, so he likely hedged his bets on Kylo Ren tracking him down before the Resistance could figure it out considering Kylo Ren knew where one of the wayfinders were as is apparent from the opening scene of TROS.
The fleet was airborn and ready before that final battle happened. They rise at the beginning of the movie and then attack the Resistance the second they show up. Palpatine and the fleet weren't caught off guard at all by any of this. It seemed his plan worked without a hitch until the final "battle" between he and Rey.
24-Dec-19 12:47am
#35 Grenadier
theJaw wrote:
Grenadier wrote:> Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've> never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like> he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they> had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental> connection they shared in 8 make more sense. Both Episodes VII and VIII hint that Kylo Ren knew of Rey before TFA.
Nope. You're reaching.
There's a scene in VII where Kylo Ren is told that "a girl" helped Finn and Poe escape. The direction gets very intense - Kylo whips around, pulls his lackey toward him, and forcefully asks "What girl!?" That line is the stinger for the scene as it transitions to the next immediately after, suggesting there's some importance to the moment. This 100% hints that Kylo Ren has knowledge of Rey, or at least a "girl" who could pose a threat to him. And this is the very first time the idea of Rey/a "girl" is brought up to Kylo Ren or anyone in the First Order... so he had no opportunity to become "fascinated" with her or to "crush" on her before reacting so oddly to the news of a girl aiding his enemies.
Nothing here hints he knew of her. Replace the line about "a girl" with any other noun. He's simply pissed off that someone, ANYONE, is helping Finn and Poe. Someone could have told him that it was a wookie helping, and he'd be ranting "What wookie?!?!?"
The fascination comes later when her realizes her abilities and their mental connection is made in TLJ.
Some will try to explain that instance away by saying Snoke filled him in about Rey (considering Snoke was eventually revealed to be Palpatine), but an hour or so after that scene, Snoke tells Kylo Ren "If what you tell me about the girl is true, bring her to me." Snoke was clearly written in Episode VII as his own character, and clearly had no previous knowledge of Rey.
Yeah, the seams between 7 and 9 are showing again.
This idea is supported by the fact that Kylo Ren seemingly knows more about her in TLJ. Whenever they have their Force-link interactions, his confidence suggests he knows more about her than he's letting on. After the Throne Room battle, he straight up reveals her origins to her. This movie takes place immediately after TFA, so he had no time to research this information or get told about it. So then... how? He had to have had some knowledge of her before TFA/TLJ or else none of this makes sense to begin with. I think it's clear Johnson picked up on the same hint I picked up on from TFA and built off that, because the hint in TFA is pretty blatant.
Simple. He's either talking out of his ass, or he's using the Force to intuit it, perhaps with a boost from Snoke and/or Palpatine.
Obviously those two movies were written before Episode IX. Palpatine tells Kylo Ren that she's "more" than he thinks... suggesting that Kylo Ren still at least somehow knew of Rey's origins before having met Palpatine. This creates a bit of a plot hole because he definitely knew her parents were "nobodies" without knowing the story of Palpatine's involvement.
Or again....his info is limited because he's getting it from Force visions and half-truths from his master(s).
> The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete> in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That> seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of> decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project. I didn't say Starkiller Base (or the fleet) was made in just a year, I suggested that it's possible Palpatine's fleet was only completed in the year between VIII and IX, which would explain why they used the Starkiller Base as a headstart. The Starkiller Base easily could have been a decade-long project, and with the technology advances, it's not too large of a stretch. Palpatine/Snoke could have had Hux/the First Order begin construction of Starkiller Base well after the fleet began getting assembled for the reason I'm about to explain below.
> If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one> WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion? The Starkiller Base project acting as a front would make enough sense. Palpatine could have created the First Order simultaneous to the "Final Order" so that they had a WMD capable of taking out all the planets of the Republic at once (which they did). That would ultimately strengthen Palpatine's chances of a complete takeover when he eventually decided to come out of hiding, and when his fleet was complete (which according to my theory would have been between Episodes VIII and IX). If they needed extra time to complete the fleet, it'd make sense to get a head start on removing some of Palpatine's obstacles before he unleashed his primary plan.
The level of engineering required just seems out of line. If you could build a bunch of ships, that's a much simpler task than hollowing out a planet, making it mobile, and figuring out how to suck a star dry, contain, that energy, and shoot it across hyperspace.
Nobody knew Palpatine was still alive - he and his fleet and all his weird followers were hidden from the rest of the galaxy. So unveiling a WMD wouldn't have "tipped" his hand regardless. Nobody knew he was still around and thus nobody would have been lead to believe he was behind it, or had other larger plans.
Except it did exactly that. If he keeps ALL of his forces in the Unknown Regions until the fleet was ready, instead of running around and starting trouble, then there is no reason for a Resistance to be formed. He'd have been better off sitting out there, building his fleet, and then blitzing everyone once he had 1000 Death Stars ready to go.
> The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise,> and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit> of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they> had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the> fleet was ready. He didn't broadcast anything before his fleet was complete. He transmitted his message of revenge, and then Kylo Ren immediately sought him out. As soon as Kylo Ren finds him, he unveils his fleet. It's not like they just finished it the second Kylo Ren got there... they were clearly ready to go before he showed up. Remember, Palpatine was hidden unless you had one of the two Sith wayfinders, so he likely hedged his bets on Kylo Ren tracking him down before the Resistance could figure it out considering Kylo Ren knew where one of the wayfinders were as is apparent from the opening scene of TROS. The fleet was airborne
Yes, but trapped.
and ready before that final battle happened. They rise at the beginning of the movie and then attack the Resistance the second they show up. Palpatine and the fleet weren't caught off guard at all by any of this. It seemed his plan worked without a hitch until the final "battle" between he and Rey.
He broadcast before the fleet was out of the atmosphere. Basically, his fleet was trapped there, unable to leave atmosphere, and therefore vulnerable. Dumb move to pick a fight with the Resistance when he could have waited until that fleet was not sitting there ripe for destruction.
#35 Grenadier
theJaw wrote:
Grenadier wrote:> Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've> never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like> he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they> had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental> connection they shared in 8 make more sense. Both Episodes VII and VIII hint that Kylo Ren knew of Rey before TFA.
Nope. You're reaching.
There's a scene in VII where Kylo Ren is told that "a girl" helped Finn and Poe escape. The direction gets very intense - Kylo whips around, pulls his lackey toward him, and forcefully asks "What girl!?" That line is the stinger for the scene as it transitions to the next immediately after, suggesting there's some importance to the moment. This 100% hints that Kylo Ren has knowledge of Rey, or at least a "girl" who could pose a threat to him. And this is the very first time the idea of Rey/a "girl" is brought up to Kylo Ren or anyone in the First Order... so he had no opportunity to become "fascinated" with her or to "crush" on her before reacting so oddly to the news of a girl aiding his enemies.
Nothing here hints he knew of her. Replace the line about "a girl" with any other noun. He's simply pissed off that someone, ANYONE, is helping Finn and Poe. Someone could have told him that it was a wookie helping, and he'd be ranting "What wookie?!?!?"
The fascination comes later when her realizes her abilities and their mental connection is made in TLJ.
Some will try to explain that instance away by saying Snoke filled him in about Rey (considering Snoke was eventually revealed to be Palpatine), but an hour or so after that scene, Snoke tells Kylo Ren "If what you tell me about the girl is true, bring her to me." Snoke was clearly written in Episode VII as his own character, and clearly had no previous knowledge of Rey.
Yeah, the seams between 7 and 9 are showing again.
This idea is supported by the fact that Kylo Ren seemingly knows more about her in TLJ. Whenever they have their Force-link interactions, his confidence suggests he knows more about her than he's letting on. After the Throne Room battle, he straight up reveals her origins to her. This movie takes place immediately after TFA, so he had no time to research this information or get told about it. So then... how? He had to have had some knowledge of her before TFA/TLJ or else none of this makes sense to begin with. I think it's clear Johnson picked up on the same hint I picked up on from TFA and built off that, because the hint in TFA is pretty blatant.
Simple. He's either talking out of his ass, or he's using the Force to intuit it, perhaps with a boost from Snoke and/or Palpatine.
Obviously those two movies were written before Episode IX. Palpatine tells Kylo Ren that she's "more" than he thinks... suggesting that Kylo Ren still at least somehow knew of Rey's origins before having met Palpatine. This creates a bit of a plot hole because he definitely knew her parents were "nobodies" without knowing the story of Palpatine's involvement.
Or again....his info is limited because he's getting it from Force visions and half-truths from his master(s).
> The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete> in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That> seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of> decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project. I didn't say Starkiller Base (or the fleet) was made in just a year, I suggested that it's possible Palpatine's fleet was only completed in the year between VIII and IX, which would explain why they used the Starkiller Base as a headstart. The Starkiller Base easily could have been a decade-long project, and with the technology advances, it's not too large of a stretch. Palpatine/Snoke could have had Hux/the First Order begin construction of Starkiller Base well after the fleet began getting assembled for the reason I'm about to explain below.
> If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one> WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion? The Starkiller Base project acting as a front would make enough sense. Palpatine could have created the First Order simultaneous to the "Final Order" so that they had a WMD capable of taking out all the planets of the Republic at once (which they did). That would ultimately strengthen Palpatine's chances of a complete takeover when he eventually decided to come out of hiding, and when his fleet was complete (which according to my theory would have been between Episodes VIII and IX). If they needed extra time to complete the fleet, it'd make sense to get a head start on removing some of Palpatine's obstacles before he unleashed his primary plan.
The level of engineering required just seems out of line. If you could build a bunch of ships, that's a much simpler task than hollowing out a planet, making it mobile, and figuring out how to suck a star dry, contain, that energy, and shoot it across hyperspace.
Nobody knew Palpatine was still alive - he and his fleet and all his weird followers were hidden from the rest of the galaxy. So unveiling a WMD wouldn't have "tipped" his hand regardless. Nobody knew he was still around and thus nobody would have been lead to believe he was behind it, or had other larger plans.
Except it did exactly that. If he keeps ALL of his forces in the Unknown Regions until the fleet was ready, instead of running around and starting trouble, then there is no reason for a Resistance to be formed. He'd have been better off sitting out there, building his fleet, and then blitzing everyone once he had 1000 Death Stars ready to go.
> The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise,> and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit> of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they> had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the> fleet was ready. He didn't broadcast anything before his fleet was complete. He transmitted his message of revenge, and then Kylo Ren immediately sought him out. As soon as Kylo Ren finds him, he unveils his fleet. It's not like they just finished it the second Kylo Ren got there... they were clearly ready to go before he showed up. Remember, Palpatine was hidden unless you had one of the two Sith wayfinders, so he likely hedged his bets on Kylo Ren tracking him down before the Resistance could figure it out considering Kylo Ren knew where one of the wayfinders were as is apparent from the opening scene of TROS. The fleet was airborne
Yes, but trapped.
and ready before that final battle happened. They rise at the beginning of the movie and then attack the Resistance the second they show up. Palpatine and the fleet weren't caught off guard at all by any of this. It seemed his plan worked without a hitch until the final "battle" between he and Rey.
He broadcast before the fleet was out of the atmosphere. Basically, his fleet was trapped there, unable to leave atmosphere, and therefore vulnerable. Dumb move to pick a fight with the Resistance when he could have waited until that fleet was not sitting there ripe for destruction.
24-Dec-19 1:11am
#36 theJaw
Nope not reaching. For the Kylo/Rey stuff, we’re going to have to disagree. Especially on the “what girl” line. And relying on the Force as a write off for why a character knows of somebody’s exact childhood details would be pretty lazy from any writer. Either way, I wouldn’t say I’m reaching as there were plenty of articles floating around the net after TFA released theorizing on if Kylo Ren knew her and how. It’s really not that far fetched.
Stuff about Episode IX was just theory anyhow, so that stuff is give or take. I was just trying to come up with reasons that might be able to explain the issues you pointed out away. Thought for about 5 minutes total about it so it’s no surprise if I was off there.
#36 theJaw
Nope not reaching. For the Kylo/Rey stuff, we’re going to have to disagree. Especially on the “what girl” line. And relying on the Force as a write off for why a character knows of somebody’s exact childhood details would be pretty lazy from any writer. Either way, I wouldn’t say I’m reaching as there were plenty of articles floating around the net after TFA released theorizing on if Kylo Ren knew her and how. It’s really not that far fetched.
Stuff about Episode IX was just theory anyhow, so that stuff is give or take. I was just trying to come up with reasons that might be able to explain the issues you pointed out away. Thought for about 5 minutes total about it so it’s no surprise if I was off there.
24-Dec-19 8:47am
#37 Reed
I can’t help but feel extremely unsatisfied with the climax of Ep 9. Especially when compared to the climax of Ep 6 and to a lesser extent Ep 3. I needed like another 10 minutes of light saber battles and crap or something.
#37 Reed
I can’t help but feel extremely unsatisfied with the climax of Ep 9. Especially when compared to the climax of Ep 6 and to a lesser extent Ep 3. I needed like another 10 minutes of light saber battles and crap or something.
24-Dec-19 8:48am
#38 Reed
They should have brought back Darth Maul for another 2v1fight with Rey and Kylo, would have been sweet.
#38 Reed
They should have brought back Darth Maul for another 2v1fight with Rey and Kylo, would have been sweet.
24-Dec-19 10:32am
#39 Reed
Did they fix Chewies cgi face in RoS? It didn’t seem to bother me this time but was an eye sore in FA...maybe I just got used to it.
#39 Reed
Did they fix Chewies cgi face in RoS? It didn’t seem to bother me this time but was an eye sore in FA...maybe I just got used to it.
24-Dec-19 1:02pm
#40 whitefire
They did. It was fine in Solo too.
It never bothered me, but I know what you mean.
#40 whitefire
They did. It was fine in Solo too.
It never bothered me, but I know what you mean.
24-Dec-19 6:51pm
#41 Shane12m
I thought 7 was fun and enjoyed it. hated 8, maybe because I had too high expectations for a good twist or something. 9 was good and I enjoyed much more than 8 but not as much as 7 Lol
#41 Shane12m
I thought 7 was fun and enjoyed it. hated 8, maybe because I had too high expectations for a good twist or something. 9 was good and I enjoyed much more than 8 but not as much as 7 Lol
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