The Great Star War (Star Wars Discussion)
22-Jun-18 9:29pm
#1 theJaw
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
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I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
#1 theJaw
| This topic had many older posts which were moved here: http://gametz.com/Ge... |
The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
image
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
May the Force be with us. inb4 move to politics.
8-Nov-20 8:20pm
#141 Kommie
Nothing about Star Wars is really that original, even the OT. So much was taken from Dune, as well as using the basic Hero's Journey story. So the fact that you find similarities in other movies isn't that shocking.
#141 Kommie
Nothing about Star Wars is really that original, even the OT. So much was taken from Dune, as well as using the basic Hero's Journey story. So the fact that you find similarities in other movies isn't that shocking.
8-Nov-20 8:23pm
#142 ft763
theJaw wrote:
As a musician, I guess that could be the case. I just personally never noticed a similarity but perfectly possible other folks did.
Not to be arrogant, but I'm also naturally into music. I guess if I listened to something I could play it. But give me the sheet, and I would struggle to pull it off on a piano (my bass clef sucks)
#142 ft763
theJaw wrote:
As a musician, I guess that could be the case. I just personally never noticed a similarity but perfectly possible other folks did.
Not to be arrogant, but I'm also naturally into music. I guess if I listened to something I could play it. But give me the sheet, and I would struggle to pull it off on a piano (my bass clef sucks)
8-Nov-20 8:30pm
#143 theJaw
Kommie wrote:
Nothing about Star Wars is really that original, even the OT. So much was taken from Dune, as well as using the basic Hero's Journey story. So the fact that you find similarities in other movies isn't that shocking.
Kurosawa's fingerprints are also all over Star Wars. I just don't feel like the voice thing is relevant to the whole "SW borrowed from other movies" thing... it's just a case of voices that some folks apparently think sound similar and others don't. That's more of an acting decision than a "lift this idea from another movie" decision.
Unless you mean the similarities I noted among the SW movies themselves. In that case you can't really lean on the "originality" explanation too hard. It's one thing to lift an idea from another movie, it's a different thing to lift the same scenario from your own movie 4 times haha
#143 theJaw
Kommie wrote:
Nothing about Star Wars is really that original, even the OT. So much was taken from Dune, as well as using the basic Hero's Journey story. So the fact that you find similarities in other movies isn't that shocking.
Kurosawa's fingerprints are also all over Star Wars. I just don't feel like the voice thing is relevant to the whole "SW borrowed from other movies" thing... it's just a case of voices that some folks apparently think sound similar and others don't. That's more of an acting decision than a "lift this idea from another movie" decision.
Unless you mean the similarities I noted among the SW movies themselves. In that case you can't really lean on the "originality" explanation too hard. It's one thing to lift an idea from another movie, it's a different thing to lift the same scenario from your own movie 4 times haha
8-Nov-20 8:34pm
#144 Kommie
Lone Wolf and Cub is also a huge influence for The Mandalorian. But Dune has so much influence on Star Wars Frank Herbert almost sued Lucas over it but didn't. It doesn't mean Star Wars is inherently bad though. I could list the Dune similarities if you want me to but I'm on mobile right now.
#144 Kommie
Lone Wolf and Cub is also a huge influence for The Mandalorian. But Dune has so much influence on Star Wars Frank Herbert almost sued Lucas over it but didn't. It doesn't mean Star Wars is inherently bad though. I could list the Dune similarities if you want me to but I'm on mobile right now.
8-Nov-20 8:40pm
#145 theJaw
Oh yah I know SW lifted from Dune hardcore. We even saw that in the first episode of Mandalorian Season 2. That Krayt Dragon was 100% a Dune worm.
#145 theJaw
Oh yah I know SW lifted from Dune hardcore. We even saw that in the first episode of Mandalorian Season 2. That Krayt Dragon was 100% a Dune worm.
8-Nov-20 8:41pm
#146 Kommie
There were a lot of things about that episode that reminded me of Dune since I had just re read it.
#146 Kommie
There were a lot of things about that episode that reminded me of Dune since I had just re read it.
8-Nov-20 8:52pm
#148 theJaw
Kommie wrote:
Krayt Dragons apparently first appear in KOTOR.
Yeah in a mission that sees you blow the krayt dragon up using a Bantha as bait so that you can get its pearl to upgrade your lightsaber.
All that happened in the episode except for the pearl upgrading any lightsaber haha
#148 theJaw
Kommie wrote:
Krayt Dragons apparently first appear in KOTOR.
Yeah in a mission that sees you blow the krayt dragon up using a Bantha as bait so that you can get its pearl to upgrade your lightsaber.
All that happened in the episode except for the pearl upgrading any lightsaber haha
8-Nov-20 11:04pm
#149 Grenadier
A Krayt Dragon first appeared in Episode IV, sort of. There is what looks like a dinosaur skeleton when the droids are wandering in the Tattooine desert. That was supposedly a Krayt Dragon, or was retroactively declared one anyway.
Wookiepedia mentions the first "live" one was in Galactic Battlegrounds, in 2001. KOTOR was 2003. There were other game and novel appearances too.
#149 Grenadier
A Krayt Dragon first appeared in Episode IV, sort of. There is what looks like a dinosaur skeleton when the droids are wandering in the Tattooine desert. That was supposedly a Krayt Dragon, or was retroactively declared one anyway.
Wookiepedia mentions the first "live" one was in Galactic Battlegrounds, in 2001. KOTOR was 2003. There were other game and novel appearances too.
12-Nov-20 3:23pm
#150 theJaw
Replying to this here just to keep it out of the review thread because I always ramble for too long.
Kommie wrote:
It just sucks that Disney caved into all the toxic fans and felt the need to retcon TLJ.
The thing that bothers me most (or at least to the highest extent that a sci fi movie series possibly can) is that letting Abrams make what is essentially his ideal Episodes VIII & IX into The Rise of Skywalker didn't even win any of the toxic fans back and never would have even if it was an astoundingly great movie. Those types of people were never going to be won back at that point. No one who spent 2 (or 4) years complaining about the SW sequels or Disney were going to see Episode IX's hodgepodge of SW tropes and be won over. So at that point Disney/Lucasfilm ultimately just ended up alienating the people who actually enjoyed the direction they were taking with TFA and TLJ in order to cater to the toxic fandom that weren't going to sing their praises regardless.
Of course you'll have the occasional fan who wasn't thrilled about TLJ and still ended up enjoying TROS, but those people generally never got too toxic about TLJ in the first place and opted to just dislike it the way a normal human being dislikes something. But for the majority of the loudest online TLJ-detractors, they were already apprehensive after TFA for various reasons (Rey, Disney, etc) and then TLJ just moved even further away from the beaten SW path (with a story that questioned morality instead of sticking to "good vs. bad", among other reasons). That ended up resulting in those detractors getting actually-toxic about it to the point that there are YouTubers spending a 20+ minute video whining about how the throne room battle features choreography and doesn't look like a real fight (aka every major blockbuster action movie) solely because it's a SW movie.
Anyhow it's become clear that the majority of actual SW fans don't dislike TLJ nearly as much as the most toxic of us wanted the world to believe at the time of its release. It's only the pettiest of SW fandom who are still harping on TLJ or tweeting garbage to Rian Johnson and the cast, whereas most people who disliked it just don't talk about it much and those of us who do like it talk about it positively. On the other hand, it seems that TROS is the movie that most of the fandom (folks who enjoyed TLJ, folks who disliked TLJ & even toxic fans alike) seem to generally hold in a more negative light although there are definitely a ton of folks who love it. Which is cool, again I liked it more than the prequels, it's just interesting to look at how Disney/Lucasfilm handled the situation and how the general mood about certain movies has shifted.
#150 theJaw
Replying to this here just to keep it out of the review thread because I always ramble for too long.
Kommie wrote:
It just sucks that Disney caved into all the toxic fans and felt the need to retcon TLJ.
The thing that bothers me most (or at least to the highest extent that a sci fi movie series possibly can) is that letting Abrams make what is essentially his ideal Episodes VIII & IX into The Rise of Skywalker didn't even win any of the toxic fans back and never would have even if it was an astoundingly great movie. Those types of people were never going to be won back at that point. No one who spent 2 (or 4) years complaining about the SW sequels or Disney were going to see Episode IX's hodgepodge of SW tropes and be won over. So at that point Disney/Lucasfilm ultimately just ended up alienating the people who actually enjoyed the direction they were taking with TFA and TLJ in order to cater to the toxic fandom that weren't going to sing their praises regardless.
Of course you'll have the occasional fan who wasn't thrilled about TLJ and still ended up enjoying TROS, but those people generally never got too toxic about TLJ in the first place and opted to just dislike it the way a normal human being dislikes something. But for the majority of the loudest online TLJ-detractors, they were already apprehensive after TFA for various reasons (Rey, Disney, etc) and then TLJ just moved even further away from the beaten SW path (with a story that questioned morality instead of sticking to "good vs. bad", among other reasons). That ended up resulting in those detractors getting actually-toxic about it to the point that there are YouTubers spending a 20+ minute video whining about how the throne room battle features choreography and doesn't look like a real fight (aka every major blockbuster action movie) solely because it's a SW movie.
Anyhow it's become clear that the majority of actual SW fans don't dislike TLJ nearly as much as the most toxic of us wanted the world to believe at the time of its release. It's only the pettiest of SW fandom who are still harping on TLJ or tweeting garbage to Rian Johnson and the cast, whereas most people who disliked it just don't talk about it much and those of us who do like it talk about it positively. On the other hand, it seems that TROS is the movie that most of the fandom (folks who enjoyed TLJ, folks who disliked TLJ & even toxic fans alike) seem to generally hold in a more negative light although there are definitely a ton of folks who love it. Which is cool, again I liked it more than the prequels, it's just interesting to look at how Disney/Lucasfilm handled the situation and how the general mood about certain movies has shifted.
12-Nov-20 4:06pm
#151 Kommie
I generally like to pretend the prequels don't exist. Haven't seen them since they were released theatrically. I do find it funny that people are "ironically" liking the PT cause they think the ST sucks so much. A lot of those people seem to think that if Lucas made a ST, it would be amazing. I disagree completely to the point where if Lucas made a ST, I'm not sure if I'd waste my time watching it. Yesterday he came out again saying what he'd do for a ST (Leia would be the hero, with him re-using Maul as the villain) and some people are frothing over the idea, but Lucas is a terrible writer. Sure, credit him for creation but the man thought Obi-Wan telling Luke "Use the force Luke" at the end of New Hope was a stupid idea. I don't get the obsession with hating something so much as to make a 20+ minute video, aside from the whole click bait appeal.
Dunkey made a recent Last of Us 2 video, and in the beginning he says "I'm not here to regurgitate your opinion on a game". He liked LOU2 and people lost their minds about it.
#151 Kommie
I generally like to pretend the prequels don't exist. Haven't seen them since they were released theatrically. I do find it funny that people are "ironically" liking the PT cause they think the ST sucks so much. A lot of those people seem to think that if Lucas made a ST, it would be amazing. I disagree completely to the point where if Lucas made a ST, I'm not sure if I'd waste my time watching it. Yesterday he came out again saying what he'd do for a ST (Leia would be the hero, with him re-using Maul as the villain) and some people are frothing over the idea, but Lucas is a terrible writer. Sure, credit him for creation but the man thought Obi-Wan telling Luke "Use the force Luke" at the end of New Hope was a stupid idea. I don't get the obsession with hating something so much as to make a 20+ minute video, aside from the whole click bait appeal.
Dunkey made a recent Last of Us 2 video, and in the beginning he says "I'm not here to regurgitate your opinion on a game". He liked LOU2 and people lost their minds about it.
12-Nov-20 4:59pm
#152 theJaw
The OT was so successful because of the people surrounding Lucas. I've read the graphic novel adaptation of his original script and it's pretty awful. Thankfully he worked it into what A New Hope became, but then that movie was only so good because his ex-wife edited into something watchable. All his director pals apparently thought the original cut was real bad. And then we know Empire and Jedi had other writers and directors working on it.
Then came the PT and it was all Lucas and just a bunch of yes-men who never challenged him, and we got what we got. I would have definitely given his ST at least a try just because I'm a fan of SW overall, but I wouldn't have had much faith unless he made them RIGHT after the OT, and long before the PT (so that particular story you mentioned wouldn't have happened regardless). Leia as a hero and Maul returning could've been cool if done right, and I feel like if he got help from the same folks who helped him on the OT, it could've turned out well. But I find that sequel idea to be difficult to imagine any time after the PT.
Plus I imagine folks would have whined about Leia being the hero or having anything to do with the Force like they did for TLJ and TROS, so that may have bit him in the ass regardless. "Not enough Luke! I want MY Luke!"
#152 theJaw
The OT was so successful because of the people surrounding Lucas. I've read the graphic novel adaptation of his original script and it's pretty awful. Thankfully he worked it into what A New Hope became, but then that movie was only so good because his ex-wife edited into something watchable. All his director pals apparently thought the original cut was real bad. And then we know Empire and Jedi had other writers and directors working on it.
Then came the PT and it was all Lucas and just a bunch of yes-men who never challenged him, and we got what we got. I would have definitely given his ST at least a try just because I'm a fan of SW overall, but I wouldn't have had much faith unless he made them RIGHT after the OT, and long before the PT (so that particular story you mentioned wouldn't have happened regardless). Leia as a hero and Maul returning could've been cool if done right, and I feel like if he got help from the same folks who helped him on the OT, it could've turned out well. But I find that sequel idea to be difficult to imagine any time after the PT.
Plus I imagine folks would have whined about Leia being the hero or having anything to do with the Force like they did for TLJ and TROS, so that may have bit him in the ass regardless. "Not enough Luke! I want MY Luke!"
12-Nov-20 5:26pm
#153 Grenadier
That news story about Lucas' version of the ST also mentioned that Maul would be teaming up with Darth Talon.
Talon was a Sith in the Legacy comics series from Dark Horse. Legacy was set 137 years after Episode 4. She fought a descendant of Luke's that was so distant we never even found out how many generations later he was. So I'm not sure how he was going to manage that one. Probably just ignore the comics, and steal the character and set her down in the sequel trilogy timeframe.
She was a female Twi'lek with red skin, tats that resembled Maul's, and an aversion to wearing much in the way of clothing.
image
#153 Grenadier
That news story about Lucas' version of the ST also mentioned that Maul would be teaming up with Darth Talon.
Talon was a Sith in the Legacy comics series from Dark Horse. Legacy was set 137 years after Episode 4. She fought a descendant of Luke's that was so distant we never even found out how many generations later he was. So I'm not sure how he was going to manage that one. Probably just ignore the comics, and steal the character and set her down in the sequel trilogy timeframe.
She was a female Twi'lek with red skin, tats that resembled Maul's, and an aversion to wearing much in the way of clothing.
image
12-Nov-20 5:31pm
#154 Kommie
Two names he wanted for the Vader Apprentice in The Force Unleashed games: Darth Insanius and Darth Icky.
#154 Kommie
Two names he wanted for the Vader Apprentice in The Force Unleashed games: Darth Insanius and Darth Icky.
17-Nov-20 9:34am
#155 Kommie
Twitter is trying to "cancel" Gina Carano cause she said some anti-mask Q-Anon conspiracy crap.
Personally I don't care that she said stuff to make people upset (if she said to behead someone, that's a different story), but I find her acting really fudging bad/stale so if somehow Twitter's Cancel Train makes her character die, I wouldn't care.
#155 Kommie
Twitter is trying to "cancel" Gina Carano cause she said some anti-mask Q-Anon conspiracy crap.
Personally I don't care that she said stuff to make people upset (if she said to behead someone, that's a different story), but I find her acting really fudging bad/stale so if somehow Twitter's Cancel Train makes her character die, I wouldn't care.
18-Nov-20 10:38am
#156 Scott
Kommie wrote:
Nothing about Star Wars is really that original, even the OT. So much was taken from Dune, as well as using the basic Hero's Journey story. So the fact that you find similarities in other movies isn't that shocking.
Cinemassacre did a video a while back about Star Wars, and one of the main points he focused on is how Star Wars drew inspiration from so many different sources, and that's why so many people like it so much. It's a combination of tons of different elements that we already liked. So I agree, the OT wasn't exactly original.
#156 Scott
Kommie wrote:
Nothing about Star Wars is really that original, even the OT. So much was taken from Dune, as well as using the basic Hero's Journey story. So the fact that you find similarities in other movies isn't that shocking.
Cinemassacre did a video a while back about Star Wars, and one of the main points he focused on is how Star Wars drew inspiration from so many different sources, and that's why so many people like it so much. It's a combination of tons of different elements that we already liked. So I agree, the OT wasn't exactly original.
18-Nov-20 10:50am
#159 Kommie
Star Wars is this weird genre of Science Fantasy - not quite full Science Fiction, with some Fantasy as well. The comic SAGA does this Science-Fantasy thing really well too.
#159 Kommie
Star Wars is this weird genre of Science Fantasy - not quite full Science Fiction, with some Fantasy as well. The comic SAGA does this Science-Fantasy thing really well too.
23-Nov-20 4:40pm
#160 theJaw
A while back I posted a short animation that broke down the original Episode IX story. This guy presents a longer and more in-depth analysis of Trevorrow’s script for anyone who hasn’t read it. Still depresses me that this isn’t the story we got. The only thing I don’t dig in this version is the Rey/Poe relationship, though even that is still pulled off alright. Otherwise it sounds like a really solid (and original) idea that would have wrapped up the saga real well. Oh well, it’s still interesting to hear about.
https://youtube.com/...
#160 theJaw
A while back I posted a short animation that broke down the original Episode IX story. This guy presents a longer and more in-depth analysis of Trevorrow’s script for anyone who hasn’t read it. Still depresses me that this isn’t the story we got. The only thing I don’t dig in this version is the Rey/Poe relationship, though even that is still pulled off alright. Otherwise it sounds like a really solid (and original) idea that would have wrapped up the saga real well. Oh well, it’s still interesting to hear about.
https://youtube.com/...
The Great Star War (Star Wars Discussion)